Are My Lemon Seedlings Going To Grow Lemons?

**devonuk** · 08-05-2016, 09:22 PM

Unlikely. Citrus do something called a node count meaning your seedlings have decided they will grow x number of leaves before flowering. Say x is 100. You will be pruning your trees, when they get to say 30 leaves, back to say 10 leaves and they will then start counting again at 11, and so on. You will get fruit only if you buy a tall greenhouse and let the trees grow unchecked.

I don't know further than that - for instance I don't know if x is fixed for each citrus species - but I have been playing with citrus seedlings for years, mainly lemon and Seville orange, without getting them to flower.

**jackarmy** · 08-05-2016, 09:27 PM

wow, i wont bother with lemmons then lol, i couldnt handle maths in school nevermind now

**Kirk** · 11-05-2016, 09:28 AM

They grow to a bush/tree but fruiting is a long time, something like 20++ years, not sure on the size they may need to get to but guess not small - they are a tree after all.

I guess you need a decent conservatory and a fair bit of patience (also luck). But ultimately lemons in the wild grow from lemon pips.

**wild** · 11-05-2016, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Kirk View Post

They grow to a bush/tree but fruiting is a long time, something like 20++ years, not sure on the size they may need to get to but guess not small - they are a tree after all.

I guess you need a decent conservatory and a fair bit of patience (also luck). But ultimately lemons in the wild grow from lemon pips.

Thank you -- Fingers crossed! :-D

**FB.** · 11-05-2016, 01:49 PM

I would think that plenty of tip-pinching during the growing season would considerably shorten the time taken to fruit because every time you pinch-out a shoot you'll be creating a 'node' which will then build up the node count much sooner than if you let it grow naturally.

**devonuk** · 11-05-2016, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by FB. View Post

I would think that plenty of tip-pinching during the growing season would considerably shorten the time taken to fruit because every time you pinch-out a shoot you'll be creating a 'node' which will then build up the node count much sooner than if you let it grow naturally.

I don't think it works like that. As I understand it, if you grow a single stem to node 10 and then cut back above node 4 and 3 shoots grow from node 4, the first node on each new shoot will be regarded as node 5 by the tree and it will count accordingly - they aren't nodes 11, 12 and 13 or even 5, 6 and 7.

**FB.** · 11-05-2016, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by devonuk View Post

I don't think it works like that. As I understand it, if you grow a single stem to node 10 and then cut back above node 4 and 3 shoots grow from node 4, the first node on each new shoot will be regarded as node 5 by the tree and it will count accordingly - they aren't nodes 11, 12 and 13 or even 5, 6 and 7.

Try it, especially if you have lots of seedlings and can spare a few for an experiment.
You might be pleasantly surprised.
Just because some book said this or that, doesn't mean unusual things don't work in the real world.
If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's how wrong 'the books' can be.

**devonuk** · 11-05-2016, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by FB. View Post

Try it, especially if you have lots of seedlings and can spare a few for an experiment.
You might be pleasantly surprised.
Just because some book said this or that, doesn't mean unusual things don't work in the real world.
If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's how wrong 'the books' can be.

I have been growing seedling citrus for over 20 years, for fun and as extra background foliage for my grafted, fruiting citrus. Mainly seville and lemon, but also anything else you can get in a supermarket. In all that time, one blossom on one seville, and that fell off.

**FB.** · 11-05-2016, 10:54 PM

Well, before bowing out of this topic, I'll simply state my findings from years of growing the more typical fruit trees - including seedlings, seedling rootstocks and vigorous triploid varieties.
To bring vigorous/seedling trees into production quickly, good results are often achieved by:

1. Limiting water supply.
2. Limiting nitrogen fertiliser.
3. The more direct sun the better.
4. Tip-pinching encourages bushiness which partially overrides node-count requirements.
5. Careful mid-summer pruning to limit leafy growth and encourage flower buds for the following year.
6. A bit of 'nicking' and 'notching' to alter sap flow.
7. With plants in containers, it is better to have a large container with poor soil than a small container with good soil.
8. Avoid winter pruning, or minimise the amount of winter pruning.

Of course, number 1 and 2 on my list go completely against what 'the books' say regarding lemons, but the books might be talking about weak-rooted dwarf-rootstock-grafted ones and not the strong roots of a seedling.
Also number 8; pruning in winter (or early spring) inhibits flower bud formation for the following year and encourages more shoots and leaves which then creates a vicious circle of needing to hack back hard each winter which continues to suppress flower formation.

**devonuk** · 12-05-2016, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by FB. View Post

Well, before bowing out of this topic, I'll simply state my findings from years of growing the more typical fruit trees - including seedlings, seedling rootstocks and vigorous triploid varieties.
To bring vigorous/seedling trees into production quickly, good results are often achieved by:

1. Limiting water supply.
2. Limiting nitrogen fertiliser.
3. The more direct sun the better.
4. Tip-pinching encourages bushiness which partially overrides node-count requirements.
5. Careful mid-summer pruning to limit leafy growth and encourage flower buds for the following year.
6. A bit of 'nicking' and 'notching' to alter sap flow.
7. With plants in containers, it is better to have a large container with poor soil than a small container with good soil.
8. Avoid winter pruning, or minimise the amount of winter pruning.

Of course, number 1 and 2 on my list go completely against what 'the books' say regarding lemons, but the books might be talking about weak-rooted dwarf-rootstock-grafted ones and not the strong roots of a seedling.
Also number 8; pruning in winter (or early spring) inhibits flower bud formation for the following year and encourages more shoots and leaves which then creates a vicious circle of needing to hack back hard each winter which continues to suppress flower formation.

That's great, but very little of it applies to citrus. They love getting very high nitrogen all summer and it certainly doesn't discourage flowering or fruiting. There is little call to encourage flower buds, and you wouldn't be doing it "for the following year" as citrus bloom several times per year. As to node counts etc, you have to appreciate that citrus is one of the world's biggest agribusinesses (or indeed businesses of any kind) - the science has been quite carefully worked out, and not just in relation to dwarfing rootstocks. And don't, whatever you do, ever ever put a citrus in a larger pot in preference to a smaller one. It makes it impossible to get the watering right, and you will kill it. That isn't just what the books say - if you grow a lot of seedlings you can do a lot of experiments in killing them with extremes of cold, wet, neglect and anything else you can think of.

**FB.** · 12-05-2016, 08:16 AM

All plants love high nitrogen and good water supply; it allows them to put all their effort into leafy and woody growth at the expense of fruit.

Long-lived plants generally produce flowers when they are stressed, otherwise they put all their effort into growing when nitrogen and water are plentiful. Many people think that a profusely flowering fruit tree is happy when in fact it's quite the opposite; some of the best blossom displays are seen on trees that are nearing the end of their life.

Seedlings are genetically programmed by mother nature to grow as quickly and as large as possible in order to outcompete other nearby plants in the wild.
Energy spent on fruiting is a waste in their early years because that's less energy going into growth.

So seedlings or vigorous varieties only start fruiting when life gets so tough that they can't grow much more (i.e. water and nutrients are becoming limited by soil depletion due to the size of the tree, or due to severe competition from other plants nearby). Seedlings are tough and designed to survive whatever mother nature throws at them, unlike the plants preferred by commercial growers or sold in shops which are relatively weak and intended to fruit and remain dwarfs rather than grow.

**FB.** · 12-05-2016, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by devonuk View Post

....And don't, whatever you do, ever ever put a citrus in a larger pot in preference to a smaller one. It makes it impossible to get the watering right, and you will kill it.....

At some point, citrus would have grown wild by self-seeding. I can't imagine mother nature carefully measured the amount of soil available to grow in, nor carefully measured out the right amount of rain at just the right time.

....
if you grow a lot of seedlings you can do a lot of experiments in killing them with extremes of cold, wet, neglect and anything else you can think of......

I'm not suggesting over-watering nor over-chilling them. That won't have any positive effect on flowering on any plant.
My suggestions mostly simulate severe competition from other nearby plants (reduced nutrient and water availability) which is one of the factors that triggers flowering in wild seedling trees and bushes of just about every type.

**boatsman** · 15-05-2016, 10:11 AM

Lemons and lemon/limes produce flowers most of the year so you can have continuous fruiting all year around. Grapefruit, on the other hand, only produces flowers in the spring and the fruit is ripe in the autumn.

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