The sourdough Starter Thread

[peanut]

Snoop Puss I still haven't got round to it! I did buy one of those proving baskets the other week so I'm a step closer than I was. Just got to get the starter started, which I keep putting off as I can't decide what kind of flour would be best.
If only I spent as much time doing, as I do over thinking about doing

[Snoop Puss]

Never got round to it Snoop... Still can't make my mind up if I should have a go or notas we have a good local bakers to me. Also I was going to use a particular flour that is supposed to be better than normal for Diabetics ( i am a member of the dead pancreas club) but since I then I've not found any to be had from the usual suspects ...

Apparently any sourdough bread is better for diabetics than yeasted bread, NtG. Lots of info on the web. I'm no expert, so I'm just passing that on. There are flours that are supposedly better for diabetics, but you might do well to start with ordinary bread flour and follow a recipe rather than go straight for something a bit out of the ordinary. Just so that if it doesn't go quite according to plan, you'll know it wasn't the flour at fault.

Like smallblueplanet says, peanut, rye is the easiest to start with supposedly. Apparently it has more natural yeasts than white flour. But I started one off with an organic white flour and it went like the clappers. Looks like SBP had a similar experience with their white starter.

[Snoop Puss]

PS Snoop Puss we also now make kefir - for the OHs IBS symptoms and sauerkraut as another fermented food.

The kefir is made with whole milk and kept in the fridge, the sauerkraut goes in the fridge when it's fermented enough.

Very jealous of that SBP. I love kefir, but it's not easy to buy locally. I have to get a friend to bring some for me from a town bigger than our local villages. I once started a thread, if I recall rightly, on fermented food. But I chickened out - was worried I'd poison everyone. I might have a look for that and revive it. Love fermented foods and need to eat more.

[smallblueplanet]

Very jealous of that SBP. I love kefir, but it's not easy to buy locally. I have to get a friend to bring some for me from a town bigger than our local villages. I once started a thread, if I recall rightly, on fermented food. But I chickened out - was worried I'd poison everyone. I might have a look for that and revive it. Love fermented foods and need to eat more.

It's very very easy to make. BUT you need to find someone with some kefir 'grains' to start you off. I got ours off eBay - a teaspoon full, sent in an envelope!.However we didn't like the flavour of the first one we got, so I bought some more and the second lot was different. The first lot was very 'strong', it's quite a few years ago so I can't remember exactly. The second lot was much easier a flavour. We keep ours in the fridge except for maybe 12-18 hours every 3/4 days when I take it out to allow it to fully ferment and start the process again.

Sauerkraut is incredibly easy to make, but perhaps not when temperatures are higher. It's originally made in autumn and cooler european temps - I'm assuming. But in the UK it's easy to ferment it and then 'stop' the ferment in the fridge.

This guy is the God of fermented foods.
https://youtu.be/xR-83ms8L68?si=u1ra1G1q9MTI_0sv

https://youtu.be/nC9BuDXDc1c?si=zB3zLZYn3CUCcNss
We've the glass weights from Masontops but the OH 'squashes' the cabbage by hand, no wooden pounder needed. But you do need the 'rubber tops', we got a ebay version.

[Snoop Puss]

Thanks, smallblueplanet. I'll check out the videos. I once had a look at making kefir. There seemed to be so much equipment. And you're right about temperatures. The other thing that worried me was keeping everything clean and sterile. I live in a land of mud, dust and dogs and no dishwasher. Anyway, I shall have a look and see what I make of it. Thanks again.

[smallblueplanet]

Thanks, smallblueplanet. I'll check out the videos. I once had a look at making kefir. There seemed to be so much equipment. And you're right about temperatures. The other thing that worried me was keeping everything clean and sterile. I live in a land of mud, dust and dogs and no dishwasher. Anyway, I shall have a look and see what I make of it. Thanks again.

It's just too much information. Lots of posters needing to make a video.

So I got a teaspoon of kefir grains and added it to a 1litre mason jar and poured in 500ml of (organic) whole milk.

If I'd just left it out on the kitchen worktops in the UK (at about 22C) it would take maybe 24-36 hours to ferment. I'd then strain the kefir grain out (it will get bigger and other grains will grow), put the strained kefir into a bottle, add 500ml of milk to the original kefir grain back in the mason jar, and go again.

Now as we don't need 500ml of kefir a day (maybe every 4 days) what I actually do is rather than leave the kefir grain and milk out fermenting I put it into the fridge. When it seems like we've nearly drunk the kefir I take the jar out of the fridge, let it 'ferment' - thicken up - strain it off and start again. It will be fermenting in the fridge but more slowly, temperature is what affects it.

Nothing complicated at all. Originally kefir was milk fermented in 'sheep skins' slung on the back of horses carried across the Eurasian steppes. How 'dirty' do you want?

I think like with sauerkraut the bacteria doing the fermenting is 'stronger' than any 'bad' bacteria might be and so it isn't ever 'off'. Now that might not be quite true, but then off milk is yogurt? You'll get what I mean when you've watched some more videos and read stuff. Basically I think like with sauerkraut it is nearly always safe but you easily know when it isn't.

Sauerkraut is also very straightforward, but does need a bit more care with the ratio of salt used - again though you can tell when it's wrong.

[Snoop Puss]

Thanks, smallblueplanet. That sounds quite manageable. I'm rather miserly with kefir here. The dogs and the cat love it. So we could easily get through 500 ml in a couple of days if they started joining in.

[Containergardener]

Thanks for updates everyone. Very impressed.

Wow bren 2012
SBP I love using kimchi and have thought about trying to make it but then worried about the salt for health reasons .
I have seen kefir but not tried it-yet. Interesting re IBS, stress lately seems to upset me that way though don't know if it's actually IBS or just me being odd.
I'm shopping today so will gather my ingredients for my starter.

What jar is best? I have jam jars but they arnt proper screw tops. Would kilners be better? And how big?

Proving baskets what do they do then?

Tips for proving in these cooler temps? I've read about using slow cooker (lid turned upside down) .

I'd love to see a fermented food thread if you still fancy it Snoop.

Peanut I do the same, read up then I chicken out. You going to have a go with me? Nick?

[smallblueplanet]

Thanks for updates everyone. Very impressed.

Wow bren 2012
...
I'm shopping today so will gather my ingredients for my starter.

What jar is best? I have jam jars but they arnt proper screw tops. Would kilners be better? And how big?

Proving baskets what do they do then?

Tips for proving in these cooler temps? I've read about using slow cooker (lid turned upside down) .

I started a Fermented Foods thread and copied some of the kefir stuff over.

As for sourdough starter, just flour and water and leave it in a loose-lidded jar (I bought Kilner/Mason jars because I can't resist more kitchenalia! but big jam jars are fine) in a 'warm' 21C-ish temperature for about 4-5 days.

As for proving in a cool temp, we just put the dough in a slightly warm oven (maybe just enough heat from the oven light, we're not talking cooking!).

[Snoop Puss]

Before you go buying anything, CG, have a look at the Weekend Bakery and Elaine Foodbod sites, pick a method you like the look of (they'll both work) and buy what you need based on that. I didn't buy a special jar for my starter, I just use a jam jar that's shaped a bit like the Weck jar that Elaine Foodbod uses, meaning rounded at the bottom inside so it's easy to stir. It was a Nocilla chocolate paste jar, if you can buy that in the UK. Perfect for my purposes and essentially free. Both sites recommend jar sizes.

As for the proving baskets, you won't need those till you're ready to actually make a loaf. If you look back through this thread, you'll see that Bren has repurposed a wicker basket. Me, I bought proving baskets because I didn't already have something suitable and in fact they were cheaper than any other basket I could get, surprisingly. But if you have a bazaar-style shop nearby, you might find something that's just right and quite cheap. And in any case, you won't need proving baskets if you make loaves in tins. I do that quite a lot as Mr Snoop likes toast and my dough from bannetons sometimes expands sideways if it's a bit warm when I turn it out, so when it's baked it doesn't necessarily fit the toaster. A tin ensures that doesn't happen. Not a bad way to start, especially if you've already got loaf tins.

It doesn't really matter how long something takes to double in size, just that it does. So cool temperatures aren't in themselves a problem. A warm dough is more difficult to handle - it tends to be stickier, doesn't hold its shape quite as well - so I actually prefer cool temperatures. I work from home, so I can work around the dough. If you go out to work, that's not quite so easy. But if the dough is getting ready for the next stage (shaping or baking) and I want to go out or to bed, say, I put it in the fridge or somewhere cold to slow it down till I'm ready.

For tips on this, timings and possible problems, I strongly rate Elaine Foodbod. There's a whole mystique around sourdough, but essentially it's just bread made with natural yeasts that you grow rather than yeast out of a packet. She strips away all the complications. Yes, she has books she sells, but you can make perfect bread using the info on her website.

[Snoop Puss]

Thanks for the links, smallblueplanet. I'll check those out. I've seen the new thread you've started on fermented foods so will have a look at that too.

[Bren In Pots]

:
What jar is best? I have jam jars but they arnt proper screw tops. Would kilners be better? And how big?

Proving baskets what do they do then?

Tips for proving in these cooler temps? I've read about using slow cooker (lid turned upside down) .

CG I use a screw top plastic container, others use glass jars or ceramic pots so long as the lids not to tight i think you can use what you like.

Proving baskets keep the dough in shape mine's a wicker basket I used to use with a cloth liner, instead now I use a piece greaseproof then lift it into the Dutch oven by holding opposite corners of the paper, the loaf is still the same way up. rather than tipping it into the Dutch oven.
Cooler temps just means the loaf will prove slower.

Here's a link to some phots from earlier in the thread. hope this helps.

https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...80#post2536480

[smallblueplanet]

...

As for the proving baskets, you won't need those till you're ready to actually make a loaf. If you look back through this thread, you'll see that Bren has repurposed a wicker basket. Me, I bought proving baskets because I didn't already have something suitable and in fact they were cheaper than any other basket I could get, surprisingly. But if you have a bazaar-style shop nearby, you might find something that's just right and quite cheap. And in any case, you won't need proving baskets if you make loaves in tins. I do that quite a lot as Mr Snoop likes toast and my dough from bannetons sometimes expands sideways if it's a bit warm when I turn it out, so when it's baked it doesn't necessarily fit the toaster. A tin ensures that doesn't happen. Not a bad way to start, especially if you've already got loaf tins.

It doesn't really matter how long something takes to double in size, just that it does. So cool temperatures aren't in themselves a problem. A warm dough is more difficult to handle - it tends to be stickier, doesn't hold its shape quite as well - so I actually prefer cool temperatures. I work from home, so I can work around the dough. If you go out to work, that's not quite so easy. But if the dough is getting ready for the next stage (shaping or baking) and I want to go out or to bed, say, I put it in the fridge or somewhere cold to slow it down till I'm ready...

Spot on Snoop.

We started with basic equipment and bought posh stuff because we like kitchen gear! We've got the 'wooden' brotform bannetons for proving some stuff because it's easier to use than the wicker/bamboo stuff that you see. But mostly we bake in 2kg loaf tins.



But we did buy a posh dough mixer as our Kenwood Chef couldn't handle big amounts of dough. It was worth the layout as it's dead easy, although some folk enjoy kneading, but OH finds it tough going as arthritis is a problem.

There's a great website that's full of (some silly priced) baking gear that I get the email marketing from, there's always something you think 'oh I want that', lol.

https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/

This is our mixer, it's great.

https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/assistent-food-mixer-cream-basic

[Snoop Puss]

This is our mixer, it's great.

https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/assistent-food-mixer-cream-basic

I have the same mixer, only the yellow one. I bought it on the basis of its colour (jolly and will clash with anything, so who cares what colour the kitchen is/will be). Unfortunately, it's slightly texturised, which makes cleaning a bit of a bother, not quite wipe-down and walk away. But oh my goodness, what a mixer... I have a Kenwood but it was starting to struggle with making bread, even small amounts of dough. So before the motor gave out completely, I bought the Ankarsrum and have kept the KW for light-weight duties. I don't make such big loaves as you, sbp, but I bake two for us and often another one or two for friends and neighbours. Doing that by hand just wouldn't be feasible on a regular basis for me without a machine.

So a big thumb's-up from me for that mixer as well, guys. But you're right, sbp. The prices on that site are a bit scary. Though I do rather fancy some Netherton tins when my current ones reach the end of their lives. I should never have bought non-stick ones.

[smallblueplanet]

...I bought the Ankarsrum and have kept the KW for light-weight duties. I don't make such big loaves as you, sbp, but I bake two for us and often another one or two for friends and neighbours. Doing that by hand just wouldn't be feasible on a regular basis for me without a machine.

So a big thumb's-up from me for that mixer as well, guys. But you're right, sbp. The prices on that site are a bit scary. Though I do rather fancy some Netherton tins when my current ones reach the end of their lives. I should never have bought non-stick ones.

There are only two of us eating the bread Snoop! We freeze the bread the day after baking, normally it's taken ages to rise and so late being baked. We have also kept dough overnight in the fridge before baking and it does seem to make it more sour. We've kept our Kenwood for small single loaves but the Ankasarum - can't spell it even though it's written on its bowl and we've had it nearly 5 years! - it is the mutts nuts! Oh but of course although 'expensive' (not as much as a posh phone!) it has a 5 year warranty - oh I just checked and now it has a 7 year warranty!