Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall tonight 9pm

[shirley]

I do think the Irish chap helping HFW should be congratulated....against the odds with his fellow farmers telling him he will never work again for his involvement with HFW, he has continued...Good for him

[johnty greentoes]

Don't Forget the series continues TONIGHT at 9pm and concludes tomorrow at the same time.

[Flummery]

[QUOTE=PAULW;159381]Sorry I am about to have a rant!

Why do people suppose that if a pig is reared outdoors it life is better than an indoor reared pig,

Does he mean me? Because I live in a pig rearing area, I can buy from the farmer's market and I can see his pigs from the road. I don't believe everything read on supermarket labels.

[piskieinboots]

I do think the Irish chap helping HFW should be congratulated....against the odds with his fellow farmers telling him he will never work again for his involvement with HFW, he has continued...Good for him

totally most deffo, brave lad - clearly passionate to see change, good on him

[Seahorse]

Taken from an article in the Times

It remains unclear exactly what labels such as free-range or organic really mean. They often seem more like badges of moral superiority over the cheap people eating cheap meat who can't afford self-congratulatory conspicuous consumption.

Lots of issues in that quotation!!!

I think the labelling query is fair but is 'cheap people' really an acceptable tag? Given my status and (lack of) income, I suppose that might be me? I like a bargain as much as anyone but it *is* possible to live ethically and healthily on a limited budget. Or at least as much so as someone with more disposable income!

[smallblueplanet]

Taken from an article in the Times

It remains unclear exactly what labels such as free-range or organic really mean. They often seem more like badges of moral superiority over the cheap people eating cheap meat who can't afford self-congratulatory conspicuous consumption.

Perhaps instead of taking cheap shots at people who are trying to make a difference as consumers, people who knock 'free range' and 'organic' ought to try and consider what it is people HOPE they are buying when they purchase their 'badge of moral superiority'!!!

On the whole if the products don't live upto the labels it is NOT the fault of the people buying them.

[Snadger]

Targeting the consumers is a good idea but I personally feel that Hugh shouldn't be getting at the likes of Tesco's, Asda etc he should be arranging meetings with the people who set the rules!

Capitalism is all about making as much money as you can whilst working within rules set down by the government! As far as the supermarkets are concerned they are trading within the rules and won't be ethically bound to make changes unless joe public stop buying cheap chickens or the government change the existing rules and guidelines!

Or am I missing something here?

PS Furthermore, I think that by involving the local council estate citizens in his experiment he is creating a 'them and us' mentallity! It's not only the peasants who buy cheap chicken and I would hazzard a guess that allotments are becoming more middle class at present anyway!

[johnty greentoes]

Capitalism is all about making as much money as you can whilst working within rules set down by the government!

I see where you are going but how does national government respond/regulate in a globalised market? Who sets the rules when supermarkets can source produce from absolutely anywhere in the world.

Maybe we need a global government as really no one, except the end consumer (!) has any power, national governments really count for very little.

All those in favour of a global government say "aye"

Vote GREENTOES!!

No, vote FEARNLEY-WHITTIGSTALL!!

[Hazel at the Hill]

Maybe we need a global government as really no one, except the end consumer (!) has any power, national governments really count for very little.

Er...precisely.

It is in our hands. If we don't buy cheap crap meat, the shops will not sell cheap crap meat.

I don't believe that people will deliberately buy cruelly produced meat, so there's a case for making proper labelling compulsary such that consumer's aren't misled, but otherwise, it's down to us.

[Snadger]

I see where you are going but how does national government respond/regulate in a globalised market? Who sets the rules when supermarkets can source produce from absolutely anywhere in the world.

Maybe we need a global government as really no one, except the end consumer (!) has any power, national governments really count for very little.

All those in favour of a global government say "aye"

Vote GREENTOES!!

No, vote FEARNLEY-WHITTIGSTALL!!

The British government can surely legislate regardimg what happens in the UK? Thats all thats needed.............a government with a set of balls!

[piskieinboots]

Er...precisely. ....but otherwise, it's down to us.

Yep indeedy - it is totally down to us and if people need educating, as some clearly do, then what he is doing is first-class.

I don't mean to sound patronising about the education bit, but I have long since learnt that it is wrong to assume that 'everyone' knows what 'you' do. Showing the people of Axminster the horrors of intensive rearing is proof positive.

I was kinda pleased to see some of them coming out of his horrid shed crying and I don't believe it was effect for camera darlink. But Thyriod Lady was just so closed minded

[Snadger]

....................... But Thyriod Lady was just so closed minded

Or skint?

[kirsty b]

Budget is a huge decider on what you buy. I'm going to hold my hands up and say that I have been buying 2 for a fiver so that my money will go further. But no more, this programme has really made me think. I routinely get 2 meals and soup out of a chicken. Now we'll just have it less often and buy better meat.

When we first got chooks the plan was to cull them for the pot as well as having them for eggs, but then so many horrible things happened to them last year (fire, fox, illness) I couldn't do it, cos I'm soft.
My current flock are rescue birds from a battery egg farm its taken so long to get them back to fully feathered and healthy I couldn't eat them. Plans are in place to make the run much bigger than it is, I have space to more than double the area and a few more perches means the shed can easily accommodate a dozen more (its 7'x7'). I'm seriously considering returning to the original plan and raising some for the pot this year as well as keeping some layers. It will be some months though before it becomes reality. Old sheds need to be pulled down and fences constructed.
I know it won't change the world...

[johnty greentoes]

thought tonights show was...beast (as my 11 year old says).

HFW is doing a spiffing job - good to see mr oliver getting on board.

liked what hazel said about labelling. I couldn't believe that co-op bird with a pic of a field on the label.

so yes the consumer is king (for now!) and so he/she needs the right info - and so there ia a role for govt...hmm...

[TonyF]

I think Paul has been wholly disingenuous here because in reality, it's him that he feels is under attack and he needs somehow to justify himself. I have no problems with slaughtermen/knackers whoever, it's a necessary job and organically reared animals have to be slaughtered.

There are, of course, bad farmers who let their animals wallow in their own muck, chicken farmers who use chickens as produce rather than birds which should be reared in the open (that's what they were designed for) and veal farmers (in Europe) who still rear veal calves in crates.

Much of the meat sold locally is reared locally, in France or in the EU. After the BSE fiasco all meat sold in France hs to be labelled with its country of origin and locally reared meat is often marked as that.

I work (gardening you understand, not overly involved in the pig side tho I do help out and am learning loads by the day) on an organic farm for rare breeds. The way the pigs are treated has to be seen to understand what it means to farm organically. The pigs are not fed anything un natural. Unlike commercially (ie intensively) reared pigs, who usually live for 5 months and are fed drugs to make them grow, the pigs on this farm are around for between 13 and 16 months so they can mature properly, naturally and slaughtered at that stage.

They have proper shelters, live outside and are actually very funny to be around. None of the weird behaviours you see in intensive sheds (other than they come running when they see you and like to be scratched) they come and go in their fields as they please, the piglets are cared for, regularly visited by the vet.

It is a business, the price of feed is constantly going up and the cost of raising the pigs likewise. But the farmers (brits) are hard nosed business people, been in farming for generations and know both the commercial side of farming, how many pigs their land can sustain, when they need to slaughter them, the whole thing.

They're not cheap people producing cheap food for cheap people to eat, they're caring people who just happen to raise an organic product. Cheap jibe Paul and wholly uncalled for btw.

Self congratulatory? Middle class, affluent? Guilty as charged I'm afraid, we've worked our nuts off for 40 years to get the lifestyle we have now. I've worked in and with the UK environmental movement since 1985 and seen it grow to be something worthwhile. OK, it's still got a long way to go to catch up with some European countries but it's getting there. But the issue isn't whether we're all self congratulatory or whatever. It's about what's going on in our heads (not our hearts) about the future, animal welfare, doing the right thing for our kids health wise.

Not all of us can grow and eat our own meat but we can do things to support what we see as a better way of rearing meat. I understand that some people, for economic reasons, and by the way, J and I have been there and done that, may not yet be able to do that but their time will come and if they do what those of us who have 'made it' are trying to do (HFW and JO included) in the future, it may lead to better health for us and our kids and may help the planet just a little bit.

We grow and eat our own veggies, many of the forum members trying to do so as organically as possible. So why not the meat we eat, circumstances permitting.