Health Care costs in France & Spain

[Grandpadragon]

An item on the tele tonight stating that France and Spain were no longer giving free health care to ex pat Brits and that they would need private insurance, It varies from region to region so those of you there or about to go will need to check it out

[TonyF]

OK folks, this just isn't true at all. Another case of a badly researched bit of tv - I'm up to my armpits in the campaign here on changes in healthcare legislation and this is just a nonsense.

Firstly, healthcare in France has never been free for Brits whether they be ex-pats or immigrants. EU legislation means that Brits are entitled to healthcare here and for everybody here under retirement age, they have to submit a form asking to be admitted to the French system.

What the French government are saying is that to comply with EU rules (bought in a few years ago but never enacted here) people who are early retired and not working, therefore not making a contribution to the economy as workers do (rather than as foreigners did) will be excluded from healthcare here and will have to find private insurance, a concept unheard of in France for all care. Previously private was the top up between the level paid by the state on the Euro forms, between 60 and 70% and 100%, now it will be 100%.

HOWEVER, that isn't the whole story as people with a serious ongoing medical condition, who will not be covered by the insurance for their condition can appeal the decision. Additionally early retired foreigners from EU countries who have been here more than 5 years will automatically be covered under EU regs.

Secondly, people who arrive here over retirement age or people who have a disability/major health problem who are under retirement age, and have a form E121, will continue to get cover, in most cases 100% for the long term ill. The retirees will still have 60/70% paid by the government and will need top up insurance for the rest. And even those getting 100% for their long term illness only get 60/70% paid for dental care, glasses and other illnesses NOT related to their major problem.

So that's never been free either. The regulation change here does not effect them.

Last night's piece was another badly researched, inaccurate article, as many of the articles written about the changes have been.

But despite it being reported so many times, wholly inaccurately, health care for EU ex-pats and immigrants to France has never been free.

[Nicos]

Grandpadragon- it's good of you to bring the subject to people's notice as there seem to be so many British who decided to take early retirement in France who are now finding themselves financially worse off because of the changes.
The 'romantic' books I have read about people going to live in France which were written a few years ago are clearly well out of date and the 'rose tinted specs' side of life in France are somewhat misleading!
People thinking of taking early retirement should clearly do thorough research.

Tony- Good for you! It's certainly been somewhat confusing to say the least and we need peeps like you around- Thanks.

[Flummery]

It's amazing how often someone (often on a TV programme or in a newspaper article) will come to an inaccurate conclusion, publish it and then other people quote it in their research. It becomes grounded in the public perception by being so often trotted out. Unfortunately many of us get our info from these media - we need more Tonys!

[scarey55]

Thank you Grandpadragon for raising this point, and thank you for putting the record straight Tony.

KK was made redundant in 2005 aged 56 and he was advised by the pension fund managers that the best course of action was to take early retirement. We live here very modestly on a small occupational pension on which, we pay French taxes.

All our working lives we paid National Insurance contributions and when we moved here we were given an E106 that covered us for health care, this has just expired. The UK Government paid the French Government for our health care so, not free yet. Once our E106 ran out we fully expected (and were happy to) pay for our health care which would only cover 60/70% we were also expecting to CONTINUE to pay our top up insurance to make up the difference.

We are amongst those whose E106 has run out and we are only now told that we can not enter the French health system either which, you will remember we would be happy to pay for (prior to this new legislation it was compolsury to contribute to the state health system and illegal to buy full health insurance)

We have now had to take out compulsory medical health insurance (it is illegal to live here without it) This does not cover us for any pre-existing conditions and, although KK does have a pre-existing condition, which will not be covered for by insurance it is fortunately not life threatening. For may people who have a more serious and possily life threatening condition it is not possible to get medical health insurance so they will have to rely on the appeals procedure or go back to the UK to live (not as easy as it would seem)

Sorry to get on my soap box but I am frustrated by those in the British press who portray us as people who expect something for nothing and keep perpetuating this myth that health care here is free IT IS NOT.

There, rant over

[yoanbob]

I travelled and lived in france spain and portugal for 10 years, I only ever went to the doctors in an emergency and usually then it was the hospital, I allways paid but I did have a form that made it cheaper (cant remember which one) I broke my arm quite badly in portugal and was charged £6, not bad I would say, different I supose if your in the same place for more than 2 years at a time.

[veg4681]

Thanks for the detailed clarification TonyF & Scarey. Precisely for medical reason that can also change over time, I'd never give up UK base even if one day we might opt for French property (already mortgage-free here).

[smallblueplanet]

Hi scarey55 and Tony, I'm a bit confused by what you're saying. What sort of cost is medical insurance in France? Do you have to pay 'up front' and claim back via insurance? Is this just if you're a French resident?

[scarey55]

Thanks for the detailed clarification TonyF & Scarey. Precisely for medical reason that can also change over time, I'd never give up UK base even if one day we might opt for French property (already mortgage-free here).

Good point but we couldn't afford to do do both. I wish that we could have afforded even a mobile home in UK but I'm afraid that was just beyond our reach - still, there's always the Lottery!

[scarey55]

Hi scarey55 and Tony, I'm a bit confused by what you're saying. What sort of cost is medical insurance in France? Do you have to pay 'up front' and claim back via insurance? Is this just if you're a French resident?

Medical insurance depends upon your personal circumstances (age, health etc) so it would be difficult to say how much it costs for any individual.

If you have a look at this it will give you a bit more information about what it might cost and it is a British based company so it will be easy to understand (although, your French is probably better than mine )

My understanding is that we would have to pay for any treatment "up front" and then claim it back from the insurance company.

On your last question, I'm assuming that you are asking about living partly in UK and partly in France.
I'm afraid I don't have enough information to answer it from a position of knowledge, perhaps Tony can help.

[smallblueplanet]

Was just generally curious about it scarey55.

I've just read some of your link, they seem a good company, although its always difficult to say that about an insurance company! But blimey, its a bit of a minefield compared to what we're used to over here (although I always say I wish I could afford private healthcare over here cos I'm no fan of the NHS).

So although you've retired, you're not officially retired until one of you can claim an E121 from the UK?

Do you have to have a French job to enter their health system, would running your own business count?


ps I have real trouble talking about health stuff, I'm a bit of a hypocondriac and instantly feel 'twinges or symptoms'!!!

[TonyF]

Thanks for the detailed clarification TonyF & Scarey. Precisely for medical reason that can also change over time, I'd never give up UK base even if one day we might opt for French property (already mortgage-free here).

Veg, the problem is that under current UK and French legislation, you can't do that. If you ever decided to buy and be domiciled in France - the two countries have different rules for definitions of being domiciled, forget the 183 day rule, that's a UK, not a French rule - you live in one or the other. Both countries will issue with EHICs to cover health care in the other country but a UK base cannot now be used for an escape clause on health care while you live in France.

Under current French legislation, living here must be proven (French tax returns to prove 5 years habitation) and once you're here for more than three months and domiciled here, if you are under the five year rule and without an E106/8/9/121 form and without health insurance, you automatically become an illegal alien and subject to the law!

[scarey55]

Was just generally curious about it scarey55.

I've just read some of your link, they seem a good company, although its always difficult to say that about an insurance company! But blimey, its a bit of a minefield compared to what we're used to over here (although I always say I wish I could afford private healthcare over here cos I'm no fan of the NHS).

So although you've retired, you're not officially retired until one of you can claim an E121 from the UK?

Do you have to have a French job to enter their health system, would running your own business count?

ps I have real trouble talking about health stuff, I'm a bit of a hypocondriac and instantly feel 'twinges or symptoms'!!!

Manda, I have PM'd you. If any one else wants to know what I have said, no problem just pm me,

[TonyF]

Hi scarey55 and Tony, I'm a bit confused by what you're saying. What sort of cost is medical insurance in France? Do you have to pay 'up front' and claim back via insurance? Is this just if you're a French resident?

Manda, it doesn't matter (with some exceptions) where you're a citizen of, you have to pay here. If you're on holiday with an EHIC card, you'll have to pay for all or some of your treatment and then claim it back in the country of issue.

French residents affiliated to the CPAM social security system also pay. But they then get a fixed amount paid back to them from the CPAM directly into their bank account, the amount depends on the event. If you visit your GP, you pay 22 euros immediately and then get 20 euros reimbursed.

I do get 100% cover provided by the State for a number of related maladies, caused by my leukaemia. But for the rest of the treatment I have - dental, glasses, broken limbs etc - I still need assurance to top up the state benefit.
J is over retirement age and I'm eligible for the 100% here. Our top up costs us about 1400 euros per year which covers us both. And much of the top up is loaded to cover multiples of care, so if the state allowance for glasses is - say - 100 euros, I get 400% of the state allowance through the assurance to cover the full costs.

J has been unwell over Xmas, ongoing problem with her leg. She had an Xray at the end of December and went to see the GP with the results on Thursday last because she had to go back to the Uk in the meantime. He IMMEDIATELY called a specialist because he though she may have a small thrombosis, she saw the specialist on the following day, he did all the tests in his office and she carried out a thick file of pics/xrays and ecgs when we left. We went back to the GP today, medication all organised, treatment well under way (40 mins with the GP, not 7 as in the UK). The total cost for three visits, 2 to the GP and one to the specialist, with medication, was around 120 euros of which we will get 115 back from the State (straight into the bank) or via assurance.

The system does take a bit of getting used to but it's still one of the best three health systems in the world.

[TonyF]

Was just generally curious about it scarey55.
So although you've retired, you're not officially retired until one of you can claim an E121 from the UK?

Do you have to have a French job to enter their health system, would running your own business count?

Manda, that's sort of right. One person can - at the moment and that may well change - have an E121 and the partner can be a dependant. However, there is some discussion atm about stopping this because women with no uncome other that the UK state pension are coming over, their partners are registered as their dependant when the partner has a private pension, the argument now being the wife is actually the dependant not the bloke.

And having a job here, either employed or self employed, is one of the ways into the system. But to start a business here will cost, at todays levels, around 4000 euros in the first year, less than that in the second year, no matter how much you earn. It all gets ironed out in year three, but those sort of payments stop a lot of people setting up businesses here. And if you get caught working unregistered, on the black, it's deep deep merde - and you're likely to be deported the way things are going at the moment.

All that said, I would not have moved here for the world, one of the bestest bestest things I've ever done.