My daughter ....

[blackkitty]

I teach teenagers Food and Nutrition and thirteen is an age when lots of them decide to become vegetarians. The most important thing is to ensure they have a varied diet
Its vitamin C which is essential for the body to absorb non-haem iron (the iron found in vegetables) and the tannins in tea and coffee prevent the absorption.
Leafy green vegetables are great as they have iron, the vitamin C and a good level of calcium, if however you find a way to get 13 year olds to eat spinach please let me know

[Glasshousevirgin]

sorry to chip in late but I can't help but do it. Personally I like meat but like a lot of vegetarian food and have been vegetarian in the past depending on who I lived / shared house with. I just wonder why it is so many vegetarian meals seem to substitute for meat. Vegetable foods can be just fine in their own right altho never did find a love for Quorn , tofu or suchlike myself.
Shipping was recently in news as actually more polluting and higher in carbon footprint as there are a lot of old ships around burning high sulphur fuels. Newer ship are becoming almost twice as efficient as those 20 yars ago but still account for about 4.5% of carbon emissions world wide (compared to 2% by air at present).
As pointed out ships can carry a hell of a lot more cargo than a plane. Pity NZ lamb and apples are producing less than half the carbon footprint than UK ones even after they are landed here!

[Shortie]

When did you last meet a fat vegetarian?

I reeeeaaally hope my boss doesn't see me say this!

He's a vegetarian and is quite 'large'... We haven't nicknamed him the grizzly bear because of his personality

[Farmer_Gyles]

well my daughter didnt go veggie for ethical or environmental reasons - while on the skiing trip they went to a restaurant where they had stuffed animal heads everwhere and she just got put right off meat - she didn't think much about it, doesn't have a clue about nutrition (always eaten anything put in front of her or left over by someone else), and she's got little to no interest in the environment etc

and she's intelligent and bright sometimes, but often lives in a world of her own and can be very dopey a lot of the time, so this isn't something she thought carefully about - she just can't face eating meat now

and because she can't face eating meat, she's not sure if she'll be ok with quorn - she knows it's not meat but doesn't know if she'll feel unable to eat it like she does with meat

i know she'll end up living like a fast-food veggie at her mothers - her mother is hopeless at the best of times - and that means i need to make up that, take even more care with her food, give her more of the food she needs that she won't get at her mothers

the one thing i don't want to do is put her on supplements - that's just not natural and if being veggie means a need for popping pills then being veggie is "wrong"

she apparently ate something with spinach on the plane coming home from the states - think she said cheese and spinach lasagne - but whatever it was she liked it

and she loves a curry - and we have lots of spinach in curries - i make a wicked curry and i'm sure i can make veggie curries quite easily

might have to rethink my planting plans to make room for more spinach ..........

[Alison]

If she likes spinnach then I've got a lovely recipe for spinnach and mushroom lasagne at home - it's dead easy and basically consists of putting some cooked (and well drained) spinnach in the bottom of a dish, covered with a few spoons of pasta type tomato sauce. Add the first layer of lasagne sheets, cheese sauce and mozarella cheese all broken up. More spinnach and tomato sauce. More lasagne then cover the pasta with thinly sliced mushrooms and cheese sauce. Grate more cheese on top and cook for about 40 mins at Gas 5. That's probably not quite right but it's something like. Freezes well or reheats but we rarely have any left.

[zazen999]

Hi
No idea why everyone gets upset with 'people who don't eat meat' eating Quorn or tofu; Quorn is mushroom based and tofu is soya...tofu has been cultivated in the east for absolutely yonks...ie it is all vegetable based anyway, it's just now got a brand attached.

Well cooked food is good with or without it. I know some people get upset at 'non-meat eaters' eating 'vege-sausages and such like', but it's just a name for a rolled up non-meat protein bundle - the fact that it looks like a sausage means it gets called a sausage, 'Rolled up non-meat protein bundle' doesn't do much for sales and marketing...


As far as I am concerned, let people eat what they want, if they are kids then as long as they get a rounded diet then all well and good.

[HeyWayne]

It's the child in me I know, but whenever the vegetarianism "debate" starts I can't help thinking of the song Disgustipated by Tool. Lyrics as follows:

And the angel of the Lord came unto me,
snatching me up from my
place of slumber,
and took me on high,
and higher still until we
moved in the spaces betwixt the air itself.
and he bore me unto a
vast farmland of our own midwest,
and as we descended cries of
impending doom rose from the soil.
one thousand, nay, a million
voices full of fear.
and terror possessed me then.
and I begged,

"Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
And the angel said unto me,
"These are the cries of the carrots,
the cries of the carrots.
You see, reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day
and to them it is the holocaust."
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat
like the tears of one millions terrified brothers
and roared,
"Hear me now,
I have seen the light,
they have a consciousness,
they have a life,
they have a soul.
damn you!
let the rabbits wear glasses,
save our brothers...can I get an amen?
can I get a hallelujah? thank you, Jesus.

life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on...
this is necessary

...and so the song goes on. If you want to hear the song - look it up on google, but unless you're a fan of "metal" or "alternative" music you won't like it.

Back on topic, I have great respect for anyone who does make the choice to go vegetarian, I feel like a bit of a hypocrite for eating meat and fish, but I do enjoy it and if you'll forgive the pun, I make no bones about it.

I do think that we do need to eat more and more cows though as the problem of global warming is exacerbated by cows: Cow Farts: Global Warmers Or A Load Of Hot Air?

[Paul Wagland]

Cereal movement worldwide is by bulk carrier (ship) which is one of the most enviromentally friendly (and cheap)ways of moving produce globally.

Regardless of how it is moved, it is still being moved. That's seven kilos of edible vegetable matter being shipped into the meat industry for every one kilo of edible meat shipped out (conservative figures). That's eight times as many food-miles for a meat meal as for a vegetarian one. There's really no way, in my view, to defend the meat industry on environmental grounds.

but I fail to see how omitting one of the major food groups from your diet is a healthy diet?

Aha! Which food group would that be? Meat is not a food group, neither is it in any way necessary for a healthy diet. Proteins, fats, fibre, carbs, minerals and vitamins are all easy to find in a vegetarian diet. And you'll have less chance of developing cancer, heart disease and various other diseases.

[Winged one]

Another idea for getting spinach in is to add it to stirfries at the last minute.

Going veggie was "not allowed" in my house growing up (and as the eldest, I was expected to give a "good example" to the rest of the kids - even lots of reasoned arguments didn't help my cause but I wasn't up to the confrontation at that point in my life).

Since I have left home, I have tended to eat an awful lot of veg in dinners, although I do still eat meat, but we are eating more fish these days too. I am trying to put less meat in many dinners, and when we have lots of our own in the summer again, I will be trying to convince OH again that we should have the odd meat-free dinner. But only to supplement our meat days, as we do need the protein (I eat very few beans, lentils etc as my gut doesn't seem to like them very much - but I am going to try again).

What you could do is make things like tomato sauces for pasta, with lots of courgettes, onions, peppers etc and cook mince/chicken in a seperate pan to add at the last minute for DS and yourself. And the same for stirfries with rice - a big pan of various veggies, with the meat added on serving so you are all eating together.

I'm sure you'll find things to keep you all happy pretty quick (and you might all end up having nut roast next Christmas!).

[The Doctor]

Lets debunk the health myth. A good vegetarian diet is far, far more healthy than a typical, modern, meat-based one. ......

Regarding nutrition, her only real challenge (especially as she's female) will be getting enough iron. Leafy greens like spinach are a very good source, and I think eggs are too. She also needs B-vitamins in order to absorb the iron. She can take a multi-vitamin supplement for these - never a bad idea at that age anyway.

Frankly, I cannot believe you are insisting that a vegetarian diet is so healthy and then advocating the use of supplements to top up what she is missing!

If the diet is correctly balanced, whatever it's content, (and accepting there are no illness or other condition-based reasons to take them) vitamin supplements are not needed at any age!

Personally, I find the fact that you have advocated a 13-year old girl take supplements as a matter of course a complete contradiction to you "debunking the health myth"!

Aha! Which food group would that be? Meat is not a food group, neither is it in any way necessary for a healthy diet. ...

Is that the healthy diet of vegetables you advocate adding supplements to...?

And you'll have less chance of developing cancer, heart disease and various other diseases.

We all have between a one in three and one in four chance of developing cancer of some sort anyway, mainly because we are living longer and therefore giving more long term cancers a chance to take hold.

I think i'll take my chances and, because I have no qualms in preparing my own, continue to eat the meat and fish I enjoy.

[smallblueplanet]

....
I think i'll take my chances and, because I have no qualms in preparing my own, continue to eat the meat and fish I enjoy.

Did someone suggest you have to become a vegetarian then?

[Paul Wagland]

You're missing my point Doc - I completely agree about a balanced diet being vital. My suggestion that FG's daughter take a multi-vitamin supplement is not because she will necessarily be missing anything from her diet, but only because he is worried that she might be, as he and his daughter are both new to the idea. A vitamin supplement is not going to hurt her, and will cover her bases if she gets the diet a bit wrong. Spinach may well be a better source of iron, but they're not mutually exclusive (and she may decide she doesn't like spinach anyway).

A vegetarian diet, statistically, reduces your chances of getting cancer. This is year on year, not in a whole lifetime. See my earlier post about veggies living an average of ten years longer.

I have no problem with people who eat meat - providing they understand the processes, would be willing to slaughter their own animals and don't buy factory farmed cr@p. This probably rules out most 'habitual' meat eaters in this country, but that's the world we live in.

[The Doctor]

Did someone suggest you have to become a vegetarian then?

Nope, just find it hypocritical to talk about healthy diets and the use of supplements in the same paragraph!

A vegetarian diet, statistically, reduces your chances of getting cancer. This is year on year, not in a whole lifetime. See my earlier post about veggies living an average of ten years longer.

I accept the point Paul, but many things statistically shorten your life. Life is too short to worry oneself to death about them all! (Irony and pun not intended!)

I enjoy eating meat too much to become a vegetarian, but have no issues with anyone who chooses to be, for whatever reason. My wife's sister used to be, as did her boyfriend (and their dog, incidently!) and they could never understand that I had no qualms about preparing my own rabbits, hares, pidgeons, fish, conger eels etc, etc!

(I can add several others to the list that were one-offs and not regulars, like hedgehog, and have had to turn down the chance to learn how to butcher venison because it's the same day as my brother-in-laws wedding! Damned inconsiderate of him!)

I would also go along with your opinion that people shouldn't eat meat if they would not be prepared to fully prepare it themselves; cradle to grave, literally. Since I would and could, I do.

[smallblueplanet]

Nope, just find it hypocritical to talk about healthy diets and the use of supplements in the same paragraph!

So do I, but it wasn't what PaulW meant.

[beefy]

Really people I don't think we are here to take potshots at each other in the great meat eater/ veggie / vegan debate . Your either on one side or the other and not many change their minds so lets not get into a slanging match with each other.
Lets try to give Farmer Gyles the info he asked for and let him and his daughter make up their own minds .