Ban Plastic Bags?

[Paulottie]

Interesting debate!

I can see that 're-education' is an ideal answer but really, how long will that take? 20 years? 50 years? If I didn't give a toss about it and brought my children up likewise, that's already another whole generation. Surely sometimes intervention is required?

I think you'll be surprised, it is amazing how much higher the environmental profile has become in the last few years. My kids discuss energy efficiency at school(5 and 7 YO). Obviously there are many people out there who don't or can't look after the children they have had let alone educate them. But really come on, eg. Tescos made a billion quid last year and the taxes on that paid a lot of civil servants. I think that there is a conflict of interest there. I am sure that they may be able to do /spend a little to solve the packaging problem

[Paul Wagland]

As far as I've noticed Paulottie, Aldi do have less packaging. I think they cut costs any way they can!

I think legislation or financial penalties (ie banning bags or charging for them) are the only way to change people's behaviour. It's true that most people on this forum will probably already be using reusable bags, but I'd say we are also an above-average-intelligence section of society - simply by the fact that we have thought about what we eat and where it comes from.

It's a sad fact that a high percentage of the population couldn't give a damn how much plastic their food is packed in, or where the packaging goes afterwards. Just so long as - God forbid - nobody suggests they can only have their rubbish collected every other week.

We should ban plastic bags, excessive packaging.... and the Daily Mail too!

[Paul Wagland]

My kids discuss energy efficiency at school(5 and 7 YO).

I was learning about saving the rainforests when I was six, but nobody's actually got around to it yet... You could still buy teak garden furniture in Wyevales until last summer.

Tescos made a billion quid last year and the taxes on that paid a lot of civil servants. I think that there is a conflict of interest there. I am sure that they may be able to do /spend a little to solve the packaging problem

This is certainly true.

[smallblueplanet]

I think you'll be surprised, it is amazing how much higher the environmental profile has become in the last few years. My kids discuss energy efficiency at school(5 and 7 YO)...

Lol! In primary school back in the 60s/70s, I was taught about subjects such as famine in Africa and how meat production was less 'efficient' as a food source than vegetables - I was quite upset by the inhumanity and unfairness of the world. Guess what, I still am, what happened?

[kentvegplot]

Why can't we have paper bags, like they do in American supermarkets as a matter of course? They could then be re-used for wrapping rubbish for the bin, or put on the compost heap, or saved to be used to take excess produce round to the neighbours......

[BarleySugar]

I remember going shopping for Mum at the only shop in the village, with the shopping bag, a list, and the correct money, because prices didn't change. I'd drop the weekly order in, and the shoppling was delivered in wooden apple crates, with paper bags if required. The crates from the previous week would be picked up at the same time.
Until last year, when my Mum became unable to get to the local supermarket herself, she would take her shopping trolley and shopping bag with her.
I am still battling with OH to stop getting the placcy bags, paying for them would definitely put him off using them. There's often bags in the boot, but he doesn't take them in. (He usually does the shopping). I always refuse a bag, but they do need to look at packaging as well. Also, they never put out the cardboard boxes anymore. We always used those when we were first married, then they stopped putting them out, probably health ansd safety or something.
My kids are a bit miffed that I give them lunch boxes instead of bags because they have to bring them home, but although they are plastic they do get reused. I also have a cupboard full of the plastic take away cartons, useful for lunchtime salads, cookery lesson ingredients and freezing real food instead of buying rubbish ready meals.
We really do need to think to the future, and if plastic bags weren't available, we would find something else, wouldn't we?

[jeannine]

Absolutely! There are lots of places where plastic bags are either paid for or banned and it really works - people soon get in the habit of re-using a more sensible bag.

The fact is we're paying for the 'disposable' bags anyway in the cost of our shopping - I'd much rather buy a bag once and re-use it hundreds of times than pay hundreds of times for a flimsy bag that could soon be flapping in a tree for years or even end up in the sea choking an unsuspecting dolphin.

[Paul Wagland]

Why can't we have paper bags, like they do in American supermarkets as a matter of course?

In some respects paper is certainly better than plastic - it doesn't take millions of years to degrade and it isn't a by-product of the petrochemical industries.

There are other issues though - making or even recycling paper uses a lot of energy and loads of water. There are also chemicals involved (such as chlorine for removing ink) that we really don't want in our environment. It's also very heavy when shipped in bulk, so transport costs (money and energy) are high.

Better to use a bag that can make a thousand trips before it becomes as bin liner.

[Paulottie]

Paul, Without changing to a discussion on rainforests. One of the reasons rainforests are not being saved illustrates my point.... there is too much money to be made! and that money bribes the govn'ts who are then sluggish to legislate.(who often have very poor populations)

One interesting point is that you may be able to buy a cheap teak table and chairs but it is not easy to buy the teak anymore, and it would cost you more to make it than buy it.
A teak table should last a lifetime even outdoors. yet i'm sure many people just get a new one rather than look after them. Can you just imagine how many teak interiors and furniture from the 60's has been put in landfill. I salvage that sort of timber... On which note you are now not allowed to take anything away once it is on council land now.(there were 2 perfect kids bikes in the tip the other day).Maybe here is the key, recycling is big bucks now.

All I am trying to say is whilst I agree with you all, Plastic carrier bags are bad. And definately it is better if shops stop giving them away. But a ban seems a bit disproportionate. I think we have to go a LOT LOT LOT further and re-educate. While everyone is brained washed into believing that they must have the lastest vac-packed model of something with the newest go faster stripe down the side we are going nowhere.

[Paulottie]

Lol! In primary school back in the 60s/70s, I was taught about subjects such as famine in Africa and how meat production was less 'efficient' as a food source than vegetables - I was quite upset by the inhumanity and unfairness of the world. Guess what, I still am, what happened?

I only seem to remember them mentioning starving children when we would eat the slop the put infront of us for lunch

[Paul Wagland]

Hopefully the retailers are starting to take note of public opinion - our local Tescos is at least making people ask for plastic bags rather than providing them at the end of the checkouts. Is this a national thing?

As an aside - despite their recent green advertising campaign, Marks & Spencer are the worst on the packaging front. Of all the major supermarkets they have the highest weight of packaging and the lowest proportion of recycled material in a typical shopping basket. I emailed them three times about this and each time they just sent me a copy of their 'environmental policy'. I refuse to shop there now.

[bluemoon]

I was recently taken to task quite severely for suggesting that perhaps we should lead a more sustainable life-style. The general opinion was that as people worked for their livings it gave them the right to spend the money they earned upon anything they chose and to destroy the planet in the process if they felt like it. This whole thing depressed me more than I'd care to admit and I had begun to think; why bother? But then I look at my grandson and know that I have to continue doing all I can, even if sometimes I feel as if I'm the only person who worries about this stuff. It's lovely to log on to the vine and read comments from like-minded people. I understand completely when someone feels that plastic bags are just the tip of an insurmountable iceberg - they are right, but I think that most of us here are doing far more than that.

[Paulottie]

Oh do bother bluemoon, I certainly didn't suggest it is futile for just a single person to swim against the tide of consumerism, Far from it and your right it is encouraging that are are so many grapes who care.

Oh funny that Paul it was the fella from marks and sparks that was on 'Breakfast' telling me how responsible they are and how they care enough about the world to charge 5p for a bag...."not just any old crap- this is Marks and Spencer super spun bullsh*t"

[Sue]

Hi
I decided to go the whole hog and refuse to use supermarkets at all, it's taken me nearly a year to work out what I actually buy and where else to source it. I talked to my box delivery company and the local pet shop and they took on extra lines I used regularily and finally that's it, nothing left to buy from supermarkets so that puts paid to the packing problem and the excess individual wrappings. I've done it not just as a protest against the wrapping, but the destruction of local business, the overwhelming power they have now, the fact that we are all turning into consumers instead of citizens - well they won't see a penny of my money any more - not that they'll notice....

And generally I don't see much reduction in bag use, have to bit my tongue when I'm out shopping and see people being given them automatically and not being prepared.
And besides the cloth bags, I found a really capacious trolley made from woven willow, there's a man in Somerset who makes them - don't need any bags at all when I've got this with me.

And like others I find it all really depressing, plastic bags are just the tip of the iceberg and if we can't even correct this waste, what hope is there
Sue

[jeannine]

A few years ago I was terrible for buying new clothes every month - lots of people in my office have a new outfit every week and it's so easy to get carried away with thinking you need stuff that you don't at all.

Then I started going to boot fairs to find unusual plants, and now nearly everything I wear is second hand, and most of the food we eat that we haven't grown ourselves is grown by local enthusiasts.

One of the great things about growing your own is that you're always busy in your spare time and so it doesn't even occur to you to trail round the shops buying rubbish.