Question for French grapes

[bobleponge]

Tony

You and I arrived in this wonderful country around the same time, along with many many other Brits (some may say too many). As well as myriad Brits, there are also countless Dutch folk, Germans, Turks, Algerians, Tunisians etc etc. Some of these immigrants speak fantastic French, others speak none at all, but here they stay. France is a country with a large immigration/emigration flux, which is, in general, accepted by the vast majority of French citizens, of whatever origin.

Your French is clearly impeccable, and I would like to think mine is passable too, and you would appear to hold a similar view of this country to myself, I love it and dont EVER see me living back in the UK.

I agree totally with some things you have said, and disagree vehemently with others, however my opening premise still remains.

Martin Luther King stylee, if you have a dream, then go for it. I wouldnt begrudge a single person a chance to live their dream, and if it was in any way possible for me to help them, I most certainly would do.

[Jeanied]

You fellas are clearly experts - but bear in mind that the French haven't cornered the market in either unemployment or xenophobia. It's all alive and well and also living in good old Blighty! I will always be seen as a foreigner in the Suffolk village I was born in, because my parents came from a different part of the country. (Some say the folks in those parts had six toes!)
I for one would have loved to move to France (when I was younger)- and who knows what is round the corner!

[its hilly]

Lots to think about here thanks all. Dont mind opposing viewpoints cos it does make you think things through more carefully.
Sadly it may have to stay a wish, as we dont have a lot of money (actually ANY would be nice) however we are cosidering this more now as we were both brought up/have lived in the countryside all our lives, and this would be to move to a simpler more self-sufficient (all be it harder) way of life. We dont have kids to worry about, although we do both have parents getting older. And not having lots of money does mean we have no luxurious lifestyle to lose. Employment round here is hard to find and low paid anyway so again not much to lose.
Logic says if it gets put on one side again then we will never do it.
Think its down to where/how much/travel time...keep on with the info folks

[Paulottie]

I don't know if I can add as much first hand experiance as Tony or Bob but I am married to a French girl and we have family and property out there. We've spent most of my downtime for 10 yrs+ there and I used to work (when a lot younger) in the wine trade in Burgundy... so not without interest.

I tend to agree with Tony that the speaking (even in my poor fashion) the language is essential. Firstly, as he says because the bureaucracy involved with property in France is tricky enough even with a fluent tongue. More importantly however is that you actually like the the people...you are not really going to appreciate the great differences in the cultures without having immersed yourself in it enough to get by in French.

If anyone imagines that the country is still like Mayle's 'Year in Provence' they are in for a shock. The days of finding little rural properties for a few grand have long gone. Unless you are independently wealthy - forget it. The exchange rate is pathetic at the moment and the cost of living and taxes are extortionate. It certainly is not as easy as it was!

I am saddened by the way the country is going...It is all homogenised chain stores and chain link fences. A few boulangeries are just about surviving but small town France is being squeezed by the supermarkets etc. (same as here.) It is not all 2 hr lunch breaks, berets and baguettes these days.

I love the culture but the French are deeply socialist and that does not include benefiting the English that wish to keep within their ex-pat communities. You can try and make money from tourism by starting a gite etc. but you may well find resentment unless you are in/have a history with the locals....that is not to say there are not a lot of wonderful folk there.

What I am trying to say, and in a friendly not a pessimistic way, is you need to be sure first in an unsentimental way that you like France and you have a viable opportunity to arrive to. If none of that puts you off I wish you the greatest of luck.

[Jardiniere]

You might get the services you want - like registering your car, medical etc - and in a social context, you'll be acceptable but never fully accepted.

Is that a dig Tony? Hope Not!

[TonyF]

Is that a dig Tony? Hope Not!

No. not a dig at all, although we 'know' each other in here and perhaps through other fora, we don't actually 'know' each other if you see what I mean so I wouldn't ever comment on other grapes life styles.

All my comments above reflect my real life experience of living here and the way the French react to the Brits who live here but who aren't involved nor do they understand what's happening around them whether that's politically, socially or economically.

[Nicos]

I'm finding it difficult to comment to be honest.
I'm still going through my settling in period and I suppose 'grieving' the loss of family and friends instant contact and 'easy' lifestyle
Strangely -for all the linguistic problems I'm facing, and frustrating ( sometimes amusing) bureaucracy there's one heck of a calmness and feeling of belonging about the place.
And yes- the cost of living is much higher than the UK- that is one thing which has really taken me by surprise!

I can agree with everything that has been said so far and what works for one person in one locality isn't necessarily the same for another person in another locality.
As with the UK- you are going to find friendly helpful neighbours right across the board down to jealous unfriendly peeps.
Some of relocating is down to luck and how much effort you put into it!

[Patchninja]

Well, I'm another one! I've lived on the Breton coast half way between Roscoff and St Malo for 20 years. I spent the first few years avoiding Brits like the plague as I didn't want to be yet another English woman who couldn't speak French - i needed to integrate properly, find work and support my two children, then aged 6 and 9. I came hear as a single person after a split.

Several things i would like to say :
1. Couples find it much harder to learn French as they speak English all day to each other and are less motivated than someone here alone.
2. If you need to find work, and I mean a proper job, then you MUST speak french totally and absolutely fluently (or pretty much!). Business here are not charities out to help Brits.
3. As has been said, if you try to work on the black market, you WILL be caught and penalised. The French authorities are not tender-hearted. There are people who will help you to set yourselves up in business.
4. Choose your area carefully. For example. In the middle of Brittany, there are a lots of Brits so if you want to work for Brits, that would be a better bet than here on the coast, where houses are much more expensive now and in the tourist town where I live there is one other couple who moved here a couple of years ago.
5. If you have to get back to England often for rellies, make sure you can. Brittany Ferries have stopped the Plymouth Roscoff service for the winter months for the last few years making it impossible for my Daughter, who lies west of the Lizard, to get here with 2 little ones for xmas! No flights to the west country either in the winter. It depends where you need to get to in England..

My husband is French and I've been here so long that I am totally accepted. The French here like the Brits, but perhaps because we aren't too many in this area!
I do have an English friend who does interior design for Brits coming here - he works with a French builder and they do very well. It can work for you too! I say follow your dream, but do it with your eyes open.

[organic]

Just a quick point on the language front.
I really don't think having little or no French is necessarily a block to moving out there... if you have the right attitude.

And now some story to pad that out a bit and put it in my context.


In 2000 I quit my job, upped sticks and moved to a town in the French Alps called Chamonix... it was only when getting off the train with a couple of big bags that I realised I didn't know where I was staying, anyone in town, or a single word of French. I'd studied it at school but had quite literally forgotten every single word. I couldn't remember "bonjour". I made Delboy of Only Fools and Horses look FLUENT!

Once I'd figured out where I was staying and wandered around town to get my bearings - I started going out socialising - not with the HUGE population of foreigners, most of whom spoke English, but with the locals. Many of whom didn't speak a word of English and of those who DID speak English - I refused to use it beyond asking how to say something in French. I went out in French - understanding 0%, then 5%, 20%, 50%, 80% and towards the end, about 95% of what was being said. All without a single lesson, no pocket dictionary and no phrasebook. I learned evrey single word of French that I have by being there, living alongside the native speakers and having a dogged determination to never make a Frenchman speak English in his own country.

You've got to really try hard though. Learning to HEAR the language is probably harder than learning to speak it so put yourself in the situation to hear it spoken at full speed as often as you can. Once you can hear it, learning to speak it is almost trivial... but going the other way is not so easy. Since moving back to the UK I've been to France with two people who both speak, read and write FAR better French than I do (I can't read or write it at all actually) and they couldn't understand a word that was being said. They hadn't tuned in their ears.

Absolutely, not having a reasonably high level of French can make the beurocracy an absolute nightmare (it's a nightmare even WITH good French).


Finally on the French vs. Brits front...
From my experience the vast majority of animosity towards the English comes from one single point.
On the whole, as a nation, we really don't put the effort in.

The day I arrived in Chamonix I was standing in line at a Tabac to buy a phonecard so I could phone home. The English guy in front of me (who opened with his order, in English) was coming up against a wall of "I don't speak English. Do you speak French? This is France!" type responses and walked out without what he came in for.
I decided to try out my newly learned phrase on him just on the off chance.
"bon-jur. parlay voo onglay?"
"i spik, err, very litul. 'ow can ah 'elp"
Just that tiny bit of effort opened doors for me, and there are similar stories all through my time living there.

One of my proudest moments was in another shop where I was a regular. One of the owners greeted me in English and we got chatting. Then the other shouted from the back room (in French) - "Hey! He can speak French perfectly well. Stop speaking English - he's only allowed to speak French in here from now on!" Much laughter followed and I left feeling really very good about myself. My French is still gramatically poor - but to be banned from speaking English in a shop because I should be improving my French was a proud moment!

If you do go - don't be a Brit on an extended holiday. Be part of the community and do whatever you can to learn the language and avoid making the French speak English in France. If you do that, you'll know that any people who don't like you don't like you because they are an idiot, or because of your personality, and not because you're English - well, unless they just hate the English, but then I refer you to the "idiot" bit.

All the best.

[janeyo]

when I lived in France I was told by a Frenchman (who else? lol) that the best way to learn a language was in bed!
Luckily for me (he wasn't the most attractive specimen lol) I was already fluent

[organic]

Haha - A phrase I've heard before! I didn't quite catch on to the meaning behind it though. I've always been chronically slow on the uptake with things like that, I'd have needed it spelling out for me to catch the hidden meaning!
Fortunately it wasn't said by a Frenchman - attractive or otherwise - not that it would have made much difference, I would still have thought it was just an odd phrase and probably some native joke that foreigners like me wouldn't get.

[Patchninja]

Organic, you don't say what you did for a living there.
Its hilly, you need some solid information to make your choice with.
in Brittany, there's a journal that comes outin English full of ads for people who can help you. If you send me your snail mail add by e-mail, I'll post you a copy. Perhaps grapes who live in other regions can do the same. That way, you'll have a better idea of local life. Send it to :
islay.corbel "at" libertysurf.fr

[Paulottie]

Well, Organic...if that was just 'a quick point' I can understand why you were a natural.

What you say is true to some extent. If you make a small effort to speak the language then you'll find everyone help you to make yourself understood...speak English - but just louder - and even the most cunning linguists will cop a deffun. It's almost the most endearing thing about the French really; and one of the most embarrassing things about the Brits....even I pretend not to speak English.

[Nicos]

It's the speed of speech which throws me! I'm getting much better at it though..oh and throwing patoise in every other word!!!
I often start off with- I'm sorry, but I'm English ( in French of course)...aww..the look of sympathy I get always brings a smile to my face!!!!

[organic]

A (genuinely) quick response this time.

Patchninja
I actually moved over to go snowboarding so at first I was living on savings. When that dried up I managed to get a job working behind a bar in the evenings. It was a bar where lots of locals went so my French improved massively there. Granted it wasn't a lofty career, but it paid the bills, kept me in the town I'd fallen in love with and was a great language tutor.
I moved back out there a few years later teleworking from the UK, so not as much "in the community" as I had been, but still not just socialising with the English.

I still kick myself for leaving (twice!). Some day I may move there for good.


Paul - I did make a quick point, then backed it up with a story.


Nicos - That's always hard to deal with. As soon as the locals think you're getting it they go off at full speed again! Slang is tough going too. A few of the people I used to go out with used liberal amounts of Verlan (backslang where words have the syllables changed around... confusing when slang gets slanged like ... Police (slang: Flic) becomes Keuf!) which was really tough to wrap my head around at first.