If you're still using plastic bags, bottles, toys and so on...

[organic]

BM - and when the wind catches the plastic in the skips?
That said - only a fraction of the plastic at sea actually comes from boats. The rest comes from land. If it was only boats doing the polluting the sea would be in a much better state.


As for scaremongering and exagguration, I hear what you're saying - and being the global warming skeptic I am you should have an idea of how hard I am to take in with these eco issues. Here's a simple answer to that.
The "Great Pacific Garbage Patch" is roughly the size of France.
Take a moment to think about the sheer scale we're talking about here. Not just a landfill.
It's so utterly huge that it is considered impossible to clear up. Not just difficult - impossible.
Even the worst oil spill in history (Iraq opening the valves at an offshore oil terminal prior to the first gulf war - 4000 square miles of oil) was comparitively miniscule in scale.


Anyway - people wanted practical alternatives - usually I'd have included some but it was late and I wanted to get the post up ... so here goes;


Nicos - one word for you... Zippo. (There's the fuel issue - I'm sure I heard something about an eco-alternative but can't recall right now - or maybe I didn't - no plastic though)

Right...
Reusing is great and up until a while back I used to do the 3 uses for a plastic bag thing too...
Once with the shopping, once for a packed lunch or something, once for a bin liner.

However, at best that still means putting something that lasts forever and never biodegrades into landfill. It's just a bad idea to start with. Even assuming the plastic makes it into the landfill and doesn't blow away - what happens when the inevitable happens and erosion exposes the landfill (now or in a hundred or more years) - the plastic blows around and hits the ocean. Plastic binliners need a rethink.
Compostible bags are one possibility. Provided they actually are compostible and not the usual "breaks into smaller bits of plastic really quickly" that many shops now use (and do nothing at all to solve the plastic problem).
Using your bin unlined is another and really not as much of a chore as people make out. Keep the bin as dry as possible, give it a quick swill if anything wet ends up on the inside and wash it once in a while. Dead easy.


OK - what about ready meals?
Setting aside the expense issue (After eating out, ready meals are about as expensive as you can get) it's really not difficult to cook meals in advance. Quite often we have a full week's worth of food made up ahead of time, and if you don't fancy that a solution that takes just minutes longer than ready meals is to make up a big batch of pasta sauce at the weekend. Each day you can make your own pasta from scratch in about 5 to 10 minutes and cook it in 3. Compared to the usual pasta cooking time of 10 minutes the difference is insignificant. No plastic waste and vastly more healthy than any ready meal.
Quite apart from pasta there are many fresh alternatives which can be cooked in no more than 15 minutes.
I know what it's like to be busy - I work at home and often don't make time to cook (in that case I tend to just stay hungry as I don't have ready meals in - surprise surprise eh?) but that's the key point... it's about making time. Cooking good, cheap, healthy, fresh food can be so unbelievably quick that it really doesn't make any sense, ecologically, financially or time-wise to rely on factory-produced meals.


Moving away from plastic is a big step and does require some changes to be made... but when you actually think it through with a cool and dispassionate head - it really isn't that big a step at all... just a series of minor changes and it's done.


I know people don't like being told that what they are doing really should be done differently - I know people "do what they can" - and that's fantastic, but things like this shouldn't serve to say "you're wasting your time" or some such, but as impetus to do more. Usually the "more" that needs doing is a relatively minor change.
Sure, not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet... sure there are still millions out there who don't make the change, but it's got to start somewhere.

And if you'd rather a more humourous slant on why it's worth making the change... read this.
'How Bad For The Environment Can Throwing Away One Plastic Bottle Be?' 30 Million People Wonder | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[SarzWix]

How did people manage without plastic? is always a good question to ask yourself. We (man) have only really had it for about 100 years altogether, and the development of polythene etc was a lot later than that: The History of Plastic
It's polythene that's my main gripe, it's largely unnecessary. Carrier bags aren't lifesaving inventions. People have managed for hundreds of years (maybe thousands) using baskets and bags made from natural & renewable sources. Food used to be wrapped in paper. These are tiny things really, but would make a huge difference. I use bags made from cornstarch for the bin. If I put something tooo wet in there, they do start to disintegrate a little, but they mostly keep the contents together long enough to get them into the wheelie bin

It would be really really difficult to do away with it altogether though, much as you might want to. How much plastic is in the computer that you're sitting typing away on for instance? How much wiring is in there in your house that's wrapped in plastic? What's your bath made of?

[organic]

Sarz - since making the decision to get as plastic-free as possible happened while sat at my desk... I looked down at the (plastic) keyboard and just laughed. Thinking about it though, I'd prefer a wooden or metal keyboard. Both would look better for a start.

It would be a really... REALLY big shift to get computers and the likes over to completely non-plastic (if possible at all) but at least they are (or at least, in this house) long-term-use items. Unlike sanitary products, nappies, toothbrushes, bags, food trays, many toys and the likes they are in use for years. Disposal is certainly a problem though.

I don't think it'll be easy - but I'm convinced it's possible, but it'd need a much bigger shift than one person changing here and there to move away from plastic wiring - especially considering some building regulations (IIRC) actually require it.


All good points you've made about plastic bags. One thing I've heard mixed messages on though is the corn starch thing. From some quarters I hear "fine" and from others that it's corn starch holding together little bits of plastic so when the starch degrades, the plastic is released... or are they two different things?

[SarzWix]

I dunno if they contain plastic? They seem to dissolve if they're sitting with wet stuff in for too long

[Bramble_killer]

OK - what about ready meals?
Setting aside the expense issue (After eating out, ready meals are about as expensive as you can get) it's really not difficult to cook meals in advance. Quite often we have a full week's worth of food made up ahead of time, and if you don't fancy that a solution that takes just minutes longer than ready meals is to make up a big batch of pasta sauce at the weekend. Each day you can make your own pasta from scratch in about 5 to 10 minutes and cook it in 3. Compared to the usual pasta cooking time of 10 minutes the difference is insignificant. No plastic waste and vastly more healthy than any ready meal.
Quite apart from pasta there are many fresh alternatives which can be cooked in no more than 15 minutes.
I know what it's like to be busy - I work at home and often don't make time to cook (in that case I tend to just stay hungry as I don't have ready meals in - surprise surprise eh?) but that's the key point... it's about making time. Cooking good, cheap, healthy, fresh food can be so unbelievably quick that it really doesn't make any sense, ecologically, financially or time-wise to rely on factory-produced meals.

Just a little bit on this quickly, but seriously, I understand what you're trying to say and I cook a lot more than I should manage.

On a good day, I get home about 6:30pm. On a bad day, this ends up being 10pm. I have been known to stay hungry until then but sometimes it involves actually eating something from a takeaway store until that point in time. I don't get the luxury of being able to be at home and stock up the store cupboards whenever I feel like it.

I'd love to be able to work from home and sort things out and be organised but by heck, don't you dare preach about how my time should be spent making meals for the freezer. (of which I've got, home made ready meals in PLASTIC tupparware boxes).

It's wonderful that people should be given education and the choice to do what they want with it. If you want someone to really believe your point of view, you provide PRACTICAL realistic solutions to their problems, you do not shove it down their throats with force.

I believe there is too much waste in the world and people don't even realise it. Take for example, plastic clothes and plastic bags (handbags) and plastic shoes.

How many women when you talk to them about plastic buy plastic shoes and plastic handbags and plastic clothes? I make a conscious effort to buy leather/cloth shoes, leather/clothe bags and clothes made from natural fibres. It's incredibly diffcult to source your clothes without PLASTIC. I don't see people complaining about that, perhaps they should start with some of that too

[organic]

Bramble, this exactly what I was getting at when I said "I know people don't like to be told".

I've rammed nothing down your throat and used no force.
I'm also not preaching.

You asked for practical solutions... I gave several based upon the information you had - it's completely unreasonable to then say you sometimes get home at 10pm and based on that "how dare I...". How, exactly, was I supposed to know what time you get home and based upon that give practical advice?

As for the luxury of being home and stocking up on a whim... I don't have that either. My office is here - but for the amount of time I spend actually at home and not in the office - I might as well be making a daily commute to LONDON.

All that said - you've gone, in two posts and without any good reason, to the "down the throat with force" argument, the "preaching" argumnet and the "you don't know what it's like, don't you dare" defence... clearly you're determined that I'm being unreasonable and unpractical so I'm not going to address this any further with you.

You've got the info and solutions exist. Investigate them at your leisure.


Natural fibres, great. All for it. And yes, I do try to persuade people of the benefits of moving away from plastic clothes. (Comfort, hygiene, environmental, fewer odours and so on.)
"There are bigger problems" doesn't change the fact that some of the biggest are plastic disposables like toothbrushes, nappies, sanitary products, cotton buds, golf balls, bottles, food trays and so on.


If you'd like to calmly discuss, figure out or try ways to get around plastic with the kind of nightmare working hours we both have (typically 14+ hours a day in the office for me... hence the nearly round-the-clock postings I make on here)... let's go for it.

I'm not, and never have been one for forcing things down a person's throat (whatever the hell that actually means when you're just talking - more than "I don't like what you're saying"? I'm not so sure) so unless you want to discuss it - let's call it "enough" now.

[Bramble_killer]

I'm going to agree that we have very differing points of view organic

[Two_Sheds]

I'm not denying it doesn't happen Bob, I just sometimes think it's exaggerated....

Scientists have confirmed that there are millions of tonnes of plastic floating in an area of ocean known as the North Pacific Gyre

[traveler123]

why recycle at all?

I came across this video in article form 4 years ago at University. We were told that over 2 thirds of our household recycled waste was not even recycled. Thismade me think whether I should even bother recycling. I certainly now think twice about using such products as plastic containers in the garden and use teracotta wherever possible. I dont like to dispose of anything but to find out that it has been used in this way is heartbreaking

[organic]

I'm going to agree that we have very differing points of view organic

Maybe... or maye less different than all that after all - such is the limitation of text-based communication though.

I'm glad we can be civil after all that.



Two_Sheds:
Also Great Pacific Garbage Patch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



EDIT

Traveler
Not only is a lot of it not recycled, but most of the plastic that is (and can be) recycled is a "one time" deal. It's made into plastic products that can't be re-cycled and so it too goes to landfill (or the sea). So while it's great that it's being re-used, it's an energy intensive process with the same inevitable end destinations.
I think I'd sooner see plastics rounded up, melted together and then wait until the people developing methods to break it down into biodegradable compounds (and it's being worked on) have figured it out properly.
The sooner we leave the vast majority (or even all) of the plastic use behind, the better.

[Two_Sheds]

According to the UN's Environment Programme, there are about 13,000 pieces in every square kilometre of sea (every sea or ocean)

Here's a good little site about it

[piskieinboots]

...plastic disposables like toothbrushes,

see I'm struggling to see how else one can clean their teeth - I really don't fancy going back to using a piece of coal

[organic]

Piskie.

See the links T_S provided earlier. The first in particular is ideal as a no-plastic solution. The latter uses vastly less but is still an issue.

Eco friendly Wooden Toothbrush
eco toothbrush | monte bianco toothbrush | recycled toothbrush | eco friendly toothbrushes

You could even use a chewing stick if you wanted a more primitive but still coal-free way of doing it. :P
No need for coal in either case.

[Hilary B]

I use plastic long-term items. I try very hard to avoid plastic bags, but don't always manage.
Toothbrushes? we tend to keep old ones for assorted cleaning jobs, but these days I have an electric toothbrush, so the part that doesn't last so long is pretty small.
When in Spain we have an even better option. Polythene is a hydrocarbon, just like oil. So are quite a lot of other plastics. It goes on the fire, which is our main source of heat.
If the disposal of plastic is the biggest issue, maybe someone should be designing a plastic-fuelled power station? (an idea I have suggested many times on other discussion forums).

[organic]

Doesn't plastic release some pretty nasty chemicals when it's burned? Maybe no worse than burning petroleum, I don't know. But it's a thought.

Hilary - your point about "not always managing" to avoid plastic bags has reminded me of something. I'll have to ask her what they are called but my girlfriend and her mum have some bags that fold down to about the size of a small coin purse (how un-manly was that comparisson? Tell you what - I'll take that back and say "smaller than a pack of cards" - there, that's a bit more butch... poker, whiskey, cigars and lies... grunt!) and go into a small pouch. You keep them in your bag until you need them and from what I remember they are bigger than a normal carrier bag when open. They are synthetic but certainly fit with the "plastic long-term items" point. I'd imagine something like silk (or possibly some other natural fibre) would so a similar job for an extra step away from plastics and pack to a similar size.