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  • #46
    Originally posted by janeyo View Post
    I have taught so many beefys!!

    Languages are COOL and they ROCK!

    What we need is a famous role model, like the latest WAG, or x factor contestant etc... to openly say that they loved languages at school and hey presto everyone will want to learn them

    Simples
    Shudders at the thought of a WAG being a role model............

    Seriously though, the GCSEs etc may have improved things but I still remember having some French vocab to learn for homework and one of the words being for a half burned log - now I can't say I've needed that phrase very often in nearly 40 years of English speaking so it's highly unlikely to be essential vocab abroard. We also learnt a lot about some local house thief who always wore a stripey jumper on the text book. I think anybody would have found that hard to feel inspired by. Did an evening course a few years ago and learnt far more as that was round general useful conversation and much more fun.

    Some of us live in the past, always talking about back then. Some of us live in the future, always planning what we are going to do. And, then there are those, who neither look behind or ahead, but just enjoy the moment of right now.

    Which one are you and is it how you want to be?

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    • #47
      My niece & nephew are some of the time taught in a "foreign" language.........Welsh
      The live in a small village near Tywyn in Wales.
      Both are fluent although only living there for about 4 years.
      I think both are learning another European language though.
      The river Trent is lovely, I know because I have walked on it for 18 years.
      Brian Clough

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      • #48
        Originally posted by organic View Post

        One thing that really hampered me... though I was in the top set for English, I never have been able to wrap my head around the theoretical side of the language. Verbs, adjectives and adverbs are still words I couldn't define for you. (I only know nouns are things because proper nouns are names)
        Participles, conjugation, past pretent, perfects and all that stuff (if I've even spelled them right) are so far over my head it's untrue.

        The fact that foreign language instruction is based so strongly upon the above really made my time in French (from 11 to 14) and Spanish (from 13 to 16) classes very hard.

        M.
        Having taught English as a second language here for 16 years, that sums up my feelings about the issues.
        Teaching the French is a joy because they DO know what these things are. You can't really learn a language without understanding these things. That is entirely the fault with English language education in Britain.

        Part of the problem for the Brits is that they know very little about English grammar. One thing that makes me want to scream at Brits here are the ones who only speak (usually very loudly) in the present tense. Why oh why is it so hard to learn past/ future tenses?

        I don't agree with you Bob, when you say that if people choose not to learn French then that's their choice. It's plain rude to go and live in another country and not be able to at the very least make polite noises.
        Look at the criticism foreigners in GB get if they don't speak English?

        Crikey, I'm turning into a right Grumpy Old Grape!

        Comment


        • #49
          I lived in Germany for a couple of years as an Army wife. I'd learnt French at school but not German, so went to an evening class to learn the basics. I didn't want to be part of one of those Army families who lived in a foreign country and couldn't be bothered to learn the language - I thought it very rude and arrogant to expect everyone to speak English to me.

          However, when I tried to speak German, I found that all the shopkeepers etc., couldn't be bothered to wait or help my stumbling attempts. All they kept saying (in English of course!) was "we haven't got time for that, we speak English". After many, many attempts, I finally gave up. I don't remember hardly any German now. But I'm not assuming that every German person is the sam. Perhaps they were fed up with the Army families, I don't know.

          When on holiday in other countries, I've found that everyone is pleased if you try and speak their language, even if it's from a phrase book.

          My friend teaches French at secondary school and says that quite a few pupils "can't see the point in learning another language - after all everyone speaks English, don't they?". Also, in a lot of cases, their English is appalling anyway and to learn another language is just too great a struggle for them.
          Forbidden Fruits make many Jams.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Patchninja View Post

            I don't agree with you Bob, when you say that if people choose not to learn French then that's their choice. It's plain rude to go and live in another country and not be able to at the very least make polite noises.
            Look at the criticism foreigners in GB get if they don't speak English?

            Crikey, I'm turning into a right Grumpy Old Grape!
            Just my opinion PN, everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do. I'm not saying its right, personally I dont agree with it, however each to their own.

            I agree totally with the comments about the lack of knowledge of our own language though.
            When I first moved here, the Ex Mme Leponge's kids were in school, and speaking a bit of French I thought I would be able to help with their homework.

            Clucking bell!! Incredible just how much grammar they were doing. They really do understand the roots of their language, whereas we dont.
            Interesting though, that when I talk to the parents of youngsters in school now (in France) they are ashamed at the lack of grammar the kids do these days, will be the death of their beautiful language etc etc. Must have been proper nails grammar when they were in school.
            Bob Leponge
            Life's disappointments are so much harder to take if you don't know any swear words.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Patchninja View Post
              Having taught English as a second language here for 16 years, that sums up my feelings about the issues.
              Teaching the French is a joy because they DO know what these things are. You can't really learn a language without understanding these things. That is entirely the fault with English language education in Britain.

              Part of the problem for the Brits is that they know very little about English grammar. One thing that makes me want to scream at Brits here are the ones who only speak (usually very loudly) in the present tense. Why oh why is it so hard to learn past/ future tenses?

              I don't agree with you Bob, when you say that if people choose not to learn French then that's their choice. It's plain rude to go and live in another country and not be able to at the very least make polite noises.
              Look at the criticism foreigners in GB get if they don't speak English?

              Crikey, I'm turning into a right Grumpy Old Grape!
              Patch - the difficulty I had, though, was that I had to have the theoretical knowledge of English to learn French and Spanish. I can use verbs, adverps and adjectives without any problem. I have no trouble with tenses and certainly don't speak in the present tense at all (Shudder! - when I read that part of your post and heard a rough voice saying "so i say to him... and then he says..." - grim!)
              I actually don't think it's necessary to have such a thorough understanding one one language to learn and understand another - while I'm sure it helps (the three people I've travelled to France with all had a good theoretical knowledge of the language, two didn't have their ears tuned in so struggled but had massively better French than mine - the other was just fluent and a complete git for it! haha) we don't learn our first language like that - by the time we're onto learning the theory of the language we're already at a level of fluency that would get us by without any struggles in any other language.

              True, the lack of theoretical understanding of English probably does make learning second languages a lot harder, but similarly a different approach for learning a second language would negate the problem right from the start.

              A more conversational approach (just like you get in a lot of the language night schools) would both help those who don't fully understand the theoretical side of the English language, but would also help attune the students' ears to the language which would mean far more of them, on their first time using it "for real" would avoid the problem where they understand the language but simply can't hear it and separate out the words people say to them.

              When you can hear the language
              Voulezvousquelquechosesàboire?
              becomes
              Voulez-vous quelque choses à boire?

              And that makes a whole world of difference to the likelihood that they'll want to try using the language again.

              Of course - this is all waaay off the original subject of why we tend to be so bad when it comes to speaking second languages... though I think the theoretical model of foreign language instruction is less helpful to a beginner than a more natural, conversational one.

              Comment


              • #52
                For me it was a terrible French teacher at school. I was doing ok until we got her in 2nd year (now year 8).
                I would like to be able to speak passable French, German, Spanish as more and more Europeans are coming to England now, so even though I don't go abroad it would be great to be able to communicate, and most people will be able to get by in one or more of these languages.

                I do think that it helps a lot if you hear it around you too.

                My eldest went to a French activity camp when she was 13 for a week. They would not use any English at all for that week. She had a fun time doing outdoor activities and it reinforced the French that she had learned and really improved her understanding of the language. She got a B in GCSE. Her school was really good also at giving them CDs, DVDs, and magazines in French. This helped her learn it more than just lessons would have done.
                My youngest went on a German trip but that was more site seeing than language and she didnt get any benefit as far as the German language was concerned as everyone spoke in English. However she has just been put forward for the higher GCSE to be taken this year as she did so well in her mocks.

                “If your knees aren't green by the end of the day, you ought to seriously re-examine your life.”

                "What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson

                Charles Churchill : A dog will look up on you; a cat will look down on you; however, a pig will see you eye to eye and know it has found an equal
                .

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                • #53
                  OK Bob, hands up, my French is virtually non-existent, even though I have been living in France now for 2 years (90% of the time). Mrs TK, on the other hand, has lived in France for 10 years and prior to that, used to come on exchange visits, she also learnt French from an early age at school and has O Level French, so I have got a walking translator everywhere I go, which makes me lazy!

                  I do know that when time allows that I really will have to make an effort and learn French, especially as Mrs TK has bought me so many cd's, including Michel Thomas which I think is brilliant.

                  With reference to Patchninja's post, which Mrs TK totally agrees with, about the English not having a proper understanding of verbs etc., maybe that is a reason why some English sometimes find it difficult to learn a new language.

                  I lived in Portugal for 3 years and was basically 'thrown in at the deep end', moving to a village where hardly anyone spoke English, so I had to learn Portuguese to do my job and get by. Although, I have to admit I can hardly write a word of Portuguese and did not study many books, but I learnt it by word of mouth.....with lots of hand gestures and wine in the bars!

                  I can get by in any situation in Portuguese, so it just goes to show that if I put my mind to it I could probably learn French, but on the otherhand, I just love listening to Mrs TK when she speaks French!

                  Whereas, many English people here in France have some English friends with a knowledge of French so they rely on them to cope with any problems and also quite a lot of the French do speak some English, although do not always admit to it, so there is not a despirate need to learn the language, so they think! Although, as many have pointed out, it is very rude not to try and intergrate and learn the language....me included!:

                  Mr TK
                  Mr TK's blog:
                  http://mr-tomato-king.blogspot.com/
                  2nd Jan early tomato sowing.

                  Video build your own Poly-tunnel

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Tomatoking View Post
                    I lived in Portugal for 3 years and was basically 'thrown in at the deep end', moving to a village where hardly anyone spoke English, so I had to learn Portuguese to do my job and get by. Although, I have to admit I can hardly write a word of Portuguese and did not study many books, but I learnt it by word of mouth.....with lots of hand gestures and wine in the bars!

                    I can get by in any situation in Portuguese
                    Pretty much exactly how I learned French. Mine was more a determination to be able to speak to the locals in French than a lack of English speakers but the end result was the same. I needed the language to do my job (and as I worked in a bar the booze was a given) and learned really fast.

                    Can't read it, can't write it, but I don't often find a situation where I can't make myself understood and understand the response.

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                    • #55
                      It also harks back to the thread a while ago about living abroad. I still think that I would be mighty lonely if I couldn't share a laugh and a joke with friends and be aware of what is going on around me via the tv, the radio, papers and simply wigging other people's conversations

                      (on the other hand it could be quite handy if I want to pretend I don't understand Monsieur PN!!!)

                      Organics, you can't compare a baby learning a language and an adult. Most adults want to know WHY they need to know/do something. A baby accepts.
                      Last edited by Patchninja; 13-04-2010, 01:53 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Babies and young children are language sponges - that's their job. As children grow older they get into other kinds of development! And adults - well.
                        If a child does not learn a language in their first few years then they will have language problems permanently.
                        Whooops - now what are the dogs getting up to?

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                        • #57
                          PN - I'm not talking about going back to the "milk" "cat" "cow" "dada" "mama" type of learning, but a more natural one.

                          I know so many adults who've studied a language for 2 or 3 years, gone to the country and been completely incapable of communicating as they learned in such an unnatural way. On the other hand I know plenty who have taken a much less formal approach learning through conversation, TV, radio and so on - and they are far more fluent in a shorter time.

                          I learned enough French to work a bar without speaking a word of English (and chatting with the punters too - not just taking orders) in 2 weeks. I started off with French that went absolutely no further than "Bonjour, parlez vous Anglais?" and "Merci, Au revoir/bon soir."... and I don't find it easy to learn languages - I just had a natural approach and started to fit in the grammar rules as I picked them up.

                          The formal aspects do have a place - I certainly wish I could read and write in French and be better at the grammar side of things - but I think they do a lot to hamper people when they are trying to learn a new language.

                          Remember we're talking, in part, about school kids here - they are at the age where a more natural form of learning is very much still a part of the way their minds work.

                          I'm not saying grammer doesn't matter, shouldn't be taught or isn't helpful... but I think when people (school age especially) are in their first year of studying a new language and they are buried under a mountain of he/she/it tables and language theory it turns it from being a living language to a dry, academic study of a language. That considered I'm not surprised so many kids drop languages at the first chance they get.

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                          • #58
                            see i am a good girl and never get angry about anything, nothing ever gets my goat either. Though i have to add i am a compulsive liar
                            http://www.paintingsussex.co.uk

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                            • #59
                              Organics, what do you mean by a natural approach? Are you aware of how languages are taught to adults today?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Natural as in not starting with grammar rules. Nobody who learns a language from birth or through immersion starts with grammar rules - they come later... naturally for the most part.

                                Some adults learn languages in a group that works on a conversational basis and they can often do OK - but invariably the ones I've met who have a more grammar-first route into the language stuggle like hell when they have to use it properly.

                                Again though - the main point I was making about natural learning and grammar first was about school kids learning second languages - not adults.

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