van v. cyclist: driver sacked

[Two_Sheds]

Today, Mr TS was ahead of me in the car and he watched me biking down the road towards him: there was a van behind me, pushing to get past (I was as far to the left as was safe). Mr TS said he passed me with only inches to spare and was really close to my back wheel too. He just couldn't wait a second or two for the road to widen where he could pass me safely.

Of those 16,000 killed or injured are we to assume that they were ALL due to wreckless driving and none due to dangerous cycling?

yep, most of them are.
86% of bike accidents involved a car or lorry. Only 11% involved a bike only and 3% a bike and pedestrian.

The most common reason for an accident?
Motorists failing to yield the right of way to a bike caused 42% of accidents. Another 39% occurred because cars were making a turn and didn't notice a bike.

that's 81% of accidents caused by driver error. Not the cyclist's lack of hi viz, not lack of lights, not lack of helmet: driver error.

If the helmets are rubbish, why not just wear a motorcycle helmet?

a motorcycle helmet is so heavy that if you fell off a bike while wearing one it'd break your neck

14,000 cyclists are injured, blah de blah, how many cyclists are there who AREN't injured?

I'm stunned. I think I'll leave this thread now. I'm sorry I started it actually.

[SarzWix]

Awww, c'mon T_S, that wasn't meant to be an insult, and I apologise if it came across as such. As I've explained twice, I was trying to compare that figure with something. I know cyclists have a hard time of it on the roads sometimes, but I was attempting to introduce a bit of balance. Obviously it came across badly, so I'll shut up.

[di]

Sorry TSs...86% involved a car or lorry...doesn't say that on all 86% occasion the car/lorry driver was at fault.
I actually agree with you that 'some' drivers are total "£$%&^*s...however,it's not all,nor most.Also there are some hideously dangerous cyclists on our roads.Both can cause accidents and devastate lives....be it killing/seriously injuring a cyclist ior ensuring a careful driver will have flashbacks for the rest of their life of the day they killed a cyclist that decided to jump a red light.

For the record,I'd love to feel safer cycling.I'm also dreading when the kiddies reach an age that they'll be cycling on roads and not pavements with grass verges....unfortunately,the minority of crap drivers that cause the dangers are highly unlikely to be sat reading a gardening forum deciding to change their ways

[miffy]

My son was ploughed into by two cyclists riding on the pavement the first one knocked him over the second added insult to injury by riding over his bag and mobile phone smashing the screen.
I have been run into in a car by a woman doing her lipstick!, a man on his mobile and also by a drunk driver.
On foot both myself and my dog daisy narrowly missed being squished by a speeding motorist earlier this month.
Unfortunately we do not live in a society where everyone is even tempered, considerate and obeys the laws of the land when it comes to road use and there are numerous examples of good and bad practice for all manner of road users as has been shown by this thread.
I just expect people to do stupid things when I am out and about either on foot, using my bike or in my car and they never fail to disappoint!!
Safe journey everyone.

[Bigmallly]

Soloution :- Lets have Advanced/Defensive courses for Drivers, Cyclists & Pedestrians then we can all be aware of everything around us at all times.........if only it was that simple....

[Alison]

Well, you've lost me.

Me too but I do ride a bike

[organic]

Sorry TSs...86% involved a car or lorry...doesn't say that on all 86% occasion the car/lorry driver was at fault.

As in earlier posts, at least two thirds and as many as "almost all" are "driver at fault".


The thing is - nobody has suggested anywhere that all drivers are rubbish (though some have defended themselves against that point) however, drivers that actually leave enough room when passing a cyclist are so rare they make unicorns seem like a common pest species.

Most drivers do not leave enough room, it's that simple.

How much is enough?

Highway code rule 163 "give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car"

How many leave that much room? How many even know they are supposed to?

While most drivers really don't run red lights (though a frightening number "push their luck"), most probably wouldn't park in a cycle lane, roll past a give-way or stop line, fail to see a cyclist at an advance stop line and drive right over them when the lights change, overtake to turn left/stop and so on... the vast majority actually don't give cyclists the room they are supposed to or that cyclists need if they are to be able to react safely to unexpected situations or if they slip on a wet, icy or diesel covered section of road.

Now, personally I don't panic when cars pass closer than that - but it leaves me no room for emergency action if a pedestrian should step out... if I ride onto ice... if I have to avoid an emerging car... or if I slip on diesel spilled all over the road by some inconsiderate fool who's overfilled their tank.

If we're honest I think most of us will admit we don't give cyclists that much room when we pass. I mean I am a cyclist and I'm guilty of passing closer than that in times of stupidity, and I do know it's not enough.

Again - nobody has suggested that most drivers are terrible and a menace... but it's true that most cyclist injuries and fatalities are caused by drivers and it's true that most drivers don't give cyclists enough room when they overtake.

All the discussion after the initial subject of the van and the bike has been asking drivers (regardless of how they drive now) to be courteous, careful, patient and give cyclists the room they need.

There's really not been anything unreasonable said... some heated, some emotional, but really it all boils down to "please drive with the care and responsibility due to other road users".

Law enforcement and the courts routinely fail to back cyclists up. When we're killed the sentences are pretty lenient. When we're injured, very often nothing comes of our complaints to police (so much so a huge number go unreported because "there's no point"). When we're just abused, threatened, driven at, spat at or have a near miss - it's so rare for action to be taken it actually makes national news when it is.

Think about it - can you imagine it reaching the national news if that van driver had been sacked for abusing and cutting up a motorist?

Unlikely, right?

That's how great the imbalance is.

That's why the thread was started and that's why cyclists often come across as very unreasonable or preachy on this kind of issue. In fact, it also explains pretty well how imbalanced the whole situation is... if a cyclist is killed by a driver who didn't look, knocked off deliberately, driven at or abused... the chorus of "but cyclists run red lights and ride on pavements" is almost instant. The two don't even compare.

Were back at the start of the circle again now though.

Anyone fancy going round again or do we stop soon?

[Bigmallly]

drivers that actually leave enough room when passing a cyclist are so rare they make unicorns seem like a common pest species.

That comment is so far fetched, I am almost insulted by it.......I said almost.

How many leave that much room? How many even know they are supposed to?

I do.

If we're honest I think most of us will admit we don't give cyclists that much room when we pass.

I always leave a cars width when overtaking cyclists.

[SarzWix]

Reported Road Casualties Great Britain: 2008

Down the right-hand side, you can open a PDF of road casualty statistics. 230,000+ road casualties in 2008. More pedestrians than cyclists. More motorbike riders than cyclists. More car occupants than cyclists. Without total numbers of each on the roads, the figures are almost meaningless except that it says to me that the roads are dangerous for everyone, if people don't take care.

On the plus side, the figures are dropping for all groups

[taff]

I'm getting me a blimp for my birthday....

[HeyWayne]

Just as a 'for instance', I was in a row of 12 cars today behind a cyclist on a single lane country road. All sat patiently waiting behind until safe to pass - all but one of us cleared the central white line when passing leaving plenty of room for the cyclist.

One in twelve.

I bet the cyclist only remembered the one numpty.

Oh, one other 'for instance' I'd forgotten about. I was out for a drive last weekend and there was a local road race on (not particularly well marshalled or sign posted - but that's another story). I came up behind a 'peleton' of about 15-20 cyclists 3-4 abreast - virtually taking up the whole lane. I sat behind waiting patiently (they were doing a decent 20 or so mph) until I reached a stretch of road that had a clear straight of about half a mile, so I tooted my horn to let the guys at the back know I was there, and set about overtaking (still maintaining) a decent distance.

The rider at the back flipped me the bird.

[organic]

Mally
I'm pretty sure that I have never, at any point in this thread, said that all drivers are bad, inconsiderate or anything else.
Review if you like but I have consistently qualified everything I've said as "rare" or "most" or "some" and have even, at times, explicitly said things like "none of the above applies if you leave room".

If you leave a car's space when passing, clearly nothing in a post about doing so applies to you.



HW
Conversely, today I saw a similar row of cars leave practically no room for a cyclist until I got to him, left the full lane, and then was copied by all those following me.
One good driver can set a good example for a whole line of traffic.

I've been in similar situations where a line of traffic is passing far too close, then one gives more room and so it continues down the line. The next block of cars then pass at the same close distance.

I can sympathise with you on being flipped off for courtesy though. Today I was riding some trails north of Manchester and ended up on a very quiet lane. Coming up behine a couple I stayed off to the side and, to be safe, said in a friendly voice "passing on your left" and got a right earful which included "oh, get a bell!" because of course "DING" tells them SO much more about my position and intended course. It's my experience that using a bell, whistle or anything else serves to make them stop or step to the side - sometimes right into your path.
I suppose the fact most people seem to use horns to show displeasure rather than presence doesn't help matters in your situation though.

[Glutton4...]

Being very rural here, we get a number of 'serious' Cyclists, often on a daily basis, as they presumably feel safer round here, despite the speed of the traffic. Being an occasional 'hobby' Cyclist, and a Horse Rider, I tend to give plenty of room when passing other, slower, forms of transport when I'm driving, but I do appreciate this is not always the case. Sadly. There is room for all of us, after all.

Having worked in and around Cambridge in the past, however - all I can say about Cyclists there is "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!"

[organic]

G4 - for a city with so many I'm always surprised how shoddy the standard of some people's riding can be in Cambridge.
It could be something like Copenhagen or Amsterdam but instead many just seem to weave about like drunk (maybe they are) and ride like they are the only ones on the road.

[Glutton4...]

They seem to have absolutely no sense of fear at all - they must be soooooo brave! I'm surprised they can pedal to be honest - they must have the largest b...s!!!!