van v. cyclist: driver sacked

[organic]

It's unfortunate that it so often comes across like attacking everyone in/on a particular vehicle, Mally.

I've been thinking about this thread and here's my take on it in calmer, more rational terms that sometimes don't see the light of day in this kind of discussion.

I think he reason the discussion sometimes seems so slanted, is because when you compare the inherent danger that bicycles and cars present to eachother and other road users the picture is massively different.
If a bicycle hits a car, the cyclist stands a good change of injury. The damage to the car is cosmetic and the people within the car are completely unharmed.
If a bicycle hits a pedestrian, almost invariably the cyclist comes off worse. There's a small risk of injuries beyond bumps and bruises but the speeds, masses, forces and materials involved make that unlikely.

If a car hits a cyclist or pedestrian, the damage to the car and its passengers are no different from above. The damage to the cyclist or pedestrian range from bumps and bruises to serious injury, permanent disability and death.

The consequences of a cyclist getting it wrong are far, far lower than the consequences of a car driver getting it wrong. That is, I believe, why the argument so often seems so anti-driver. It's not to say cyclists don't have a responsibility to avoid injuring pedestrians or damaging cars but to say that the consequences of one are so much worse than the other.


Usually discussions about the interaction between different road users is worded along the lines of "car drivers do this" and "cyclists do that" - some people genuinely do seem to think the group they are talking about all act like that but unless it's obvious that they are it's best to read it all with that "doesn't apply" qualification.

The reality is, almost everything that has been said in this thread boils down to "PLEASE be considerate and share the road". (Exception made for HW's dig about paying for the roads. )

The rest of it is a gentle (or not so gentle) reminder that cyclists are made of bone, muscle, blood and have a somewhat fragile brain, nervous system and organs which, if broken, can leave us dead. All drivers need to bear in mind just how dangerous their vehicles are. Regardless of who is at fault, if a car, bus, LGV or HGV is involved in a crash with a cyclist (or a pedestrian for that matter) the consequences for the person without a couple of tons of steel around them for protection really are dire. The thing that makes cyclists so passionate about courteous driving, proper road positioning and all the rest, is that despite having a legitimate place on our roads, despite riding one of the safest vehicles ever created and despite all the precautions we might take - it just takes a moment's lack of concentration, rage, rushing, half-hearted check of the blind-spot, unsignalled maneuver and so on to put our lives and health very seriously at risk.

Even with the best, rule-abiding cycling in the world, sometimes a car driver just isn't looking properly and drives straight into the back of a bike. It's a very nasty kind of crash and when it happens and there can only be one person to blame - but none of that helps the cyclist - who's now got to deal with serious injury or leave friends and family behind as they find out what really happens when we die.

If you imagine what it feels like to have to deal with that level of stress and danger every single time you travel somewhere* (something that, when you think about it, should be one of the most trivial and stress-free things we do) you'll see just why cyclists can be so vocal about their rights and the responsibilities of other road users. It's not that most of us don't know or believe we have responsibilities too - rather that it seems all too many (again, with the "not all" qualification) drivers actually don't know our rights and their responsibilities. It is certainly not an attack on all car drivers (though some cyclists are very anti-car on principle) but rather a gentle reminder to carry on keeping your eyes peeled for us to those who do look for cyclists and a loud, clear "PLEASE! Will you OPEN your eyes and LOOK where you are driving that thing!? You're going to KILL someone if you're not careful!!!" to those who don't.


Why do I argue the cyclist's corner in this debate? Well, the reason for that could not be simpler.
I am currently alive, happy and deeply in love. I sincerely want to remain alive, happy and deeply in love when I get back from the shop with some milk in about half an hour, when I get back from the coffee shop with more grounds this evening and from my allotment each day.


Thanks for driving carefully and actively looking for cyclists, those of you who do. Those of you who don't actively look but usually see us - please pay a wee bit more attention, neither of us wants to see the moment where you didn't see one of us and it all goes wrong. Those of you who frequently have a "where did he come from?" moment when the cyclist hasn't just pulled onto the road without looking - well, please try to pay more attention. Most of the time we've been there all along and you just didn't see us.


There's room for us all on the roads, but some of us are more vulnerable than others and if you could keep that in mind as you drive it would be great.


Cheers.


* think of the amount of bad driving you have to react to when you drive, times that by about 100 and put a very real danger of serious injury or death into every situation - then take away your seatbelt, airbags and all those crumple zones that protect your body

[organic]

lindyloo - thanks for that post.
Yep, horses are flight animals and no, no all riders tense up. I'm one of the cyclists who slows down and passes the time of day. After all, we've both chosen a mode of transport that gets us outdoors in the fresh air where we get to see more and talk to people... and are both that wee bit vulnerable when we come off the bridleways and onto the roads.

The only reason I mentioned tensing at all was some riders do tense up but don't seem to realise the effect that can have on the horse. They tend to blame cyclists and think that, in general, horses are scared witless by us and I don't think that's really the case... certainly not when under the control of a good rider and the cyclists don't pass by at full speed and whooping while they hit mach-2 right next to the poor nag.

Besides - why scream past when you can slow down and pass the time of day?

All being well I'll get to see the other side of things too this year - the plan is to learn to ride at some point. Can't wait.

[Bigmallly]

Very elequently put Organic, may I request you put a word regarding the unresponsible cyclists out there. I take onboard everything you have said but with all due respect your comments in my opinion are still biased towards cyclists.

[Alison]

Bikes must by law be fitted with a fixed front and rear light, and new bikes must have a bell. BBC - h2g2 - Bicycle Lights

Alison...
Highway code section 60.
A front white and a red rear light MUST be visible on bikes riding after dusk.
It really is the law.

I probably worded my orignal post badly in responding to the original post. I was simply making the point that it isn't the law that all bikes have to have lights fitted. If you only ever go out in daylight then you don't have to have lights at all, the law only refers to between dusk and daylight - Taken from the CTC site:

Abbreviated to RVLR: the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (amended in 1994 and 2005) require pedal cycles to have various lights and reflectors fitted, clean and working properly, when being ridden on a public road between sunset and sunrise. Cyclists may also be required to light up in conditions of seriously reduced visibility during the day, but only if they have functional lights already fitted. Lights are not required when the cycle is stationary or being pushed along the roadside.

Probably rather farcial but true and I am often amazed at the risks some people will put themselves through by not bothering

[PAULW]

ORGANIC
The thing that horses and dogs dont like about cyclist is there is a human form moving along without footsteps, talk, whistle, sing just let them know there is somebody there, the thing that used to do my head in and upset horses was the car driver that used to follow directly behind the horse, it could hear a car but never see it then when you waved the driver on they would take half a day to pass you.

[Alison]

then when you waved the driver on they would take half a day to pass you.

Although I don't ride personally I've been told by many friends who do that one of the things that they hate the most is drivers screaming past them and that they would prefer it if people went a bit slower. If I'm in my car then it's in my interest not to spook the horse (have seen the amount of damage that can be done to both animal and vehicle!) so have always followed this advice, along with giving a good wide berth too. Kind of difficult to please everybody if the advice is conflicting

[piskieinboots]

I shall continue to drive carefully and slowly passed a horse and rider and the only way I would be 'sat behind' the horse is if traffic is oncoming

[Two_Sheds]

your comments in my opinion are still biased towards cyclists.

The statistics are biased against cyclists: about 16,000 injured or killed by drivers every year.
One person (on average) killed per year by a cyclist.


Irresponsible cyclists are disliked by other cyclists as much as by motorists, because we all get tarred with the same brush

[PAULW]

Alison what you get is people taking the advice to pass slowly to the extreme and as I said following and spooking the horse, you can never guarentee what a horse is going to do as it has a brain of its own it is not a machine.

[HeyWayne]

Irresponsible cyclists are disliked by other cyclists as much as by motorists, because we all get tarred with the same brush

Likewise with drivers

[HeyWayne]

you can never guarentee what a horse is going to do as it has a brain of its own it is not a machine.

Oh, I've driven cars with a mind of their own.

[organic]

PaulW - good point about approaching without footsteps. Quiet approaches are kinda predatory so not all that good for a herbivore. It's not often enough that I ride off-road these days, but when I do I do tend to greet the rider when I'm approaching a horse anyway so hopefully that settles it a bit.

When driving, I wait back at a bit of a distance and then when passing I do so wide, at a reasonable pace (not fast but not lingering) and try to be at low revs when alongside the horse. Sound good?


Alison - I'm not quite sure what the solution would be - fitting lights pre-sale would be an issue for cost, quality and maintenance - and also completely unnecessary for bikes used mainly off-road or in the day time.
Requiring them to be fitted post-sale has similar issues (minus cost and quality as in that case people will buy what they are happy with).
Having a headlight on during the day makes it harder for others to judge your speed which is never a good thing. (That said - I almost always ride with a flashing red rear light as an attention getter - I also suspect it makes me look a bit less like I know what I'm doing - and that's meant to result in a bit more space being given when cars overtake.)


BigMally - don't forget - I drive too. I can't lug a ladder and all my survey kit to see 2 or 3 clients a day when they are all 15 miles apart and the nearest one is 10 miles from my house.

I think the irresponsible cyclists have been covered pretty well already - I simply wanted to clarify the situation for cyclists and try to explain why they (we?) sometimes come across as very anti-car or preachy when in fact they are just trying to stay alive long enough to get home to see their families.

Irresponsible cyclists are a danger almost only to themselves... however when it comes to following the rules of the road I see no difference between them and cars. The rules are the rules and if everyone follows them we all become much safer. That sometimes means stoping at every red light on a road, but it avoids the risk of ploughing into cyclists, motorbikes cars and so on when the lights change (and that's true regardless of your chosen vehicle).

I'm not trying to argue one side or the other here, again, I drive and ride - and soon I'll be going for my motorcycle licence (CBT next week if money comes in on time). I was just trying to clarify the weight of responsibility we all take on when we sit in the driver's seat of any motor vehicle and how that responsibility affects others when it isn't observed. The rules absolutely apply equally to all road users, but those who drive motor vehicles (particularly those with more than 2 wheels) have far more potential to cause great harm if they don't concnetrate or observe the rules, and so have a far greater responsibility to look out for others - whether those others follow the rules or not. That applies just as much to me when I drive as it does to anyone else.

I absolutely detest seeing cyclists riding against traffic - I think it is one of the most dangerous things they can do as it causes cars to swerve. However, I also think car drivers (including me) have a responsibility to look out for people doing stupid things like that and react accordingly and in a safe manner.

All that said, the main worry I have on the roads when I'm cycling is not people pulling out in front of me; not left hooks (even though they are incredibly dangerous and annoy the hell out of me); or many of the other things I can see coming and react. The main worry I have is that I'l lbe riding along following the rules of the road to the letter - and some fool in a car (bus, van, whatever) won't be paying enough attention, fail to see me and run into me.

Rear-enders are something I can do nothing about other than encourage people in charge of motor vehicles to look out for cyclists so that situation never arises.

That was the point I was arguing from. Most cyclists actually do follow the rules of the road and as such the actions of the irresponsible ones don't really come into their situation. In that situation the problem is drivers not taking care or paying attention... or in the more common wording in this thread... without consideration towards other road users.

As ever, this whole post should only cause discomfort or offence in those people who flout the rules or don't pay enough attention when driving (or who flout the rules when cycling, for that matter) - for everyone else I hope this thread serves only as a reminder of the responsibility we take on when we fire up a motor vehicle and take it onto the roads, and to keep an eye out for cyclists because again, we're just people with friends, families and loved ones... trying to get somewhere. Just like you really.

[organic]

Likewise with drivers

Thing is - most cyclists I've come across are drivers too.

[di]

Although I don't ride personally I've been told by many friends who do that one of the things that they hate the most is drivers screaming past them and that they would prefer it if people went a bit slower. If I'm in my car then it's in my interest not to spook the horse (have seen the amount of damage that can be done to both animal and vehicle!) so have always followed this advice, along with giving a good wide berth too. Kind of difficult to please everybody if the advice is conflicting

Likewise...although I think I shall carry on as always which is to follow behind(not right up it's bum)and overtake when safe to do so.

I've not got a problem with cyclists,horses or cardrivers...so long as they're riding/driving in a way that's safe to both them and other road users.
The only times that cyclists or horses bug me(and it only happens very rarely)is when there's a rally or several horses riding together....on country roads it can be almost impossible to overtake safely when you've got ten cyclists or four horses back to back to overtake.
I can totally understand why the initial news article is of interest to cyclists...the dangers to cyclists from reckless drivers are far huger than to drivers and it's good to see that those reckless drivers are being taken seriously,hopefully it will make them a lil more considerate.

[HeyWayne]

Thing is - most cyclists I've come across are drivers too.

Have many under-age drivers round your way then?

By the way, you've reached 1001 posts. Well done.