van v. cyclist: driver sacked

[lindyloo]

organic; yes it probably has been about 15 years; horses have been a lifelong passion to me, and i am getting to the age where the distant past is clear, and the recent past is all lumped into a grey area of"then" ; certainly the place i am now, and have been for 15 years, the bridlepaths have been open to cyclists for the entire time i have been there. but i first sat on a horse at about age 2, and so 15 years ago is still fairly new to me, as i am now nearer 60 than 50!!

i think these sort of threads are good, as people can see and hopefully understand other people's point of view, and so be more tolerant of each other.

i dont mind being behind a pack of anything waiting to pass safely, but what i dont particularily like are the cyclists who speed up when i try to pass- i sort of wish they would slow down or stay at the same speed. ! but the ones who speed up are ussually clad in lycra, and with head sets on, on a mission, and are not nice gardeners! ( i probably shouldnt say that) but i think they are in a different catergory of cyclist than just the ordinary going from point "a" to point "b" sort of cyclist. ( they also happen to be the ones most likely to wizz up behind us, which i originally complained about)

[SarzWix]

Okay, several points.

(This is NOT my opinion ) I have heard it said that cyclists shouldn't be clogging the roads up because they don't pay road tax!

Some drivers aren't happy to sit behind any slow moving traffic, 2 wheeled or 4, engined or not. These are the drivers that 'tailgate' anything that isn't going as fast as they want to. We ALL have to put up with them, even other car drivers.

Saying that country roads are 'only safe to do 30 mph on anyway' is far too simplistic. I live in the middle of Yorkshire and we have PLENTY of country roads Lots of them go uphill, cars obviously go faster uphill than bikes. And the ones that I know like the back of my hand, I can drive faster than 30mph safely on, in that I'm not going to end up in a ditch or wall from taking a corner too fast etc. Big bunches of cyclists taking up most of the road DO cause hold-ups on the back roads round here, and they should have the courtesy to pull over and let cars past. They rarely do though.

And finally, when you're out on your bike and people drive courteously, how often do cyclists notice that? The nature of humans is to remember the stuff that makes you angry, but proportionally is there more drivers that cause accidents with cyclists? For me, even if sitting behind a cyclist/horse/tractor annoys me beyond belief, I'd still wait to pass safely!

[PAULW]

PaulW - good point about approaching without footsteps. Quiet approaches are kinda predatory so not all that good for a herbivore. It's not often enough that I ride off-road these days, but when I do I do tend to greet the rider when I'm approaching a horse anyway so hopefully that settles it a bit.

When driving, I wait back at a bit of a distance and then when passing I do so wide, at a reasonable pace (not fast but not lingering) and try to be at low revs when alongside the horse. Sound good?

.

Sounds spot on to me big O, the other thing to remember is most horses on the road are used to a bit of traffic if not the rider should be wearing a tabbard declaring Young horse caution .

[lindyloo]

problem with those tabards is that we horse riders are advised not to wear them, by insurance companies, because in the event of an accident the other party, even if they are at fault, can use it as an admission of responsibility, just as they advise you never to say sorry to the other driver if you have a collision in a car. so many people just use a plain yellow tabard or one that says please slow down or please pass wide and slow. the traditional way is for a younger more inexperienced horse or rider to ride on the inside, or even with a horse in front, rear, and closest to traffic, but now that the rules have changed, we not supposed to ride abreast/ box in a young horse in like that.

[RoadCar]

If anyone is interested on Look North tonight it may mention about a cycle path in Grimsby if you have Digital you can get it on there, it will be Yorkshire and Humber tonight at half 10. Just thought I'd let you know.

Thanks
Daniel

[organic]

Okay, several points.

(This is NOT my opinion ) I have heard it said that cyclists shouldn't be clogging the roads up because they don't pay road tax!

That little snippet to shouted out of car windows on a regular basis.
In fact, I saw a video of some gobby woman in a passenger seat boil it down to 2 lines which, though they demonstrate a severe lack of understanding seriously made me laugh.
"You have no say on the roads whatsoever. No pay, no say!"
Absolute brilliance!

Nobody in the UK pays road tax. It was abolished around the time of Winston Churchill.
Some (not all) motor vehicles are liable for vehicle excise duty.
VED rakes in about 5 billion a year. The highways agency alone costs more than that. Roads are all paid for out of general taxation but even if you just look at the numbers VED only pays for part of the core road network.

And finally, when you're out on your bike and people drive courteously, how often do cyclists notice that? The nature of humans is to remember the stuff that makes you angry, but proportionally is there more drivers that cause accidents with cyclists? For me, even if sitting behind a cyclist/horse/tractor annoys me beyond belief, I'd still wait to pass safely!

I notice and sincerely appreciate (for the same "alive, happy and deeply in love" reasons I gave to Mally earlier) courteous driving all the time - and when it's of the kind that's a bit less usual (passing with a car's width between them and me, waiting for me to pass a line of parked cars before even getting close enough to pass, etc) I hold up a thumb or hand in thanks. Sometimes I'll even thank them again when I fly past them in a traffic jam further down the road or meet them at a set of lights.
Some people (cars, bikes, the lot) take the view that thanking someone when they follow the rules is inappropriate and suggests they'd have been right not to. I don't think that means they don't appreciate it though. (I disagree on the thanking point and do it a lot - but still.)


As for the rest... tailgaters are a menace. Clogging a road on a slow uphill section is inexcusable - though I wouldn't expect cyclists to stop in that instance, climbing can be hard enough already without having to stop and start and doing that makes it even worse.

Finally, I didn't have an answer to your question about proportions (and still kinda don't as I don't think there are any stats on that exact question) so I had a quick google and came up with a study from NYC showing that 60% of cyclist deaths in that city were driver-at-fault. (The number climbs to 85% if ones where the driver was drunk or unlicenced are reclassified as driver-at-fault)
http://rightofway.org/research/cyclists.pdf

I also saw a passing comment that said UK government statistics show 2 of 3 cyclist accidents are caused by a driver and most of the remaining 1 of 3 accidents involved young cyclists.
Cycling Accident Reports

Interesting point anyway! I might do some more reading into that side of things when I've got some spare time on my hands.

[trousers]

can i make one comment ,whilst on my route home today from cirencester driving down the motorway what did i see, three cyclists three abreast riding like there was no tomorrow, it was utter madness, 10 miles further on ,on an a roadwith a constant row of cars ,vans all moving at 50 ish,a numb skull chooses to pull out of a side road in a little nissan right in front of my van causing me and the two cars behind. to skid into the on coming traffic,luckily the bmw three back was a unmarked police car, lights on siren on and 1mile up the road had pulled said pillock over,so in a round about way there are idiots on or in all forms of transport as one two hour journey proves,i see it every day,as i drive on average 1000 miles a week,the early morning before 7 comuters in my humble oppinionare the worst , intoo much of a hurry!!!

[organic]

Did I just read that right?
Cyclists on the motorway???
I've read it three times now to see if I'm missing something but seriously!? I can't even find the words!

Glad you didn't end up crashing because of that Nissan and even more glad a copper saw it. That is good news.

On the motorway though!? Cyclists?!?


Some people!

[SarzWix]

No, I didn't word that very well did I?

I meant, how many drivers pass you with no problems, before one passes you and causes you to nearly/have an accident? If 20 cars passed you with no problems, but one nearly forced you into a ditch or whatever, naturally it would be the bad/scary incident that stuck in your head and made you curse car drivers etc etc.

(And by 'you' and 'your' I mean any cyclist/horse-rider/slow vehicle driver)

[trousers]

yep even though its a two lane motorway its still madness ,and they were clearly road racers as they looked as if they were on the tour of france

[PAULW]

Lindyloo I bow to your superior knowledge it is 25 yrs since I worked with horses and I realise thing have changed apart from horse and car drivers.

[organic]

No, I didn't word that very well did I?

I meant, how many drivers pass you with no problems, before one passes you and causes you to nearly/have an accident? If 20 cars passed you with no problems, but one nearly forced you into a ditch or whatever, naturally it would be the bad/scary incident that stuck in your head and made you curse car drivers etc etc.

(And by 'you' and 'your' I mean any cyclist/horse-rider/slow vehicle driver)

I'd agree with that. Certainly the majority of cars passing don't make me fear for my life. Of course, "it only takes one" and all that. That said, even the minority of drivers who genuinely drive very badly around cyclists (whether out of malice, inattention or plain old mistakes) add up to a very large number and pose a significant threat.

Some cyclists definitely do tar all car drivers the same and ditto the other way around. I try to be careful to qualify my comments with words like "some" and "doesn't apply to those" but often this discussion comes down to all car drivers being maniacs who are out to kill anything on 2 wheels and all cyclists being kamikazes who think red traffic signals don't apply and they always have right of way.

Clearly that's not the case but there's a significant population who either don't see cyclists (these are among the most dangerous drivers on the road) or who don't understand the proper way to ride a bike on the road and so think cyclists are in the wrong when in fact they are doing everything they are supposed to. Similarly there are plenty of cyclists who do things they shouldn't, and while that's generally inexcusable the danger it poses to other road users is far lower.


Oh and I think this thread might be liable for a new world record for the longest running without descending into a flame-war about helmets... there probably aren't enough lawyers or cyclists on here to achieve the critical mass (see what I did there?) to spark that one off though.

[northepaul]

I have stayed out of this debate because I thought it was heated enough (in both a good and bad way) but just wanted to say
I used to ride a bike everywhere, loved it, I dont drive so it was a perfect way to get around...(except in the rain!!)
I unfortunately gave up when I had my bike nicked and health probs after my daughter was born.
I kind of felt like I lost some independance.

I got hit by a car in tesco car park once, stupid woman didnt look and reversed out. I have been cut up (by cars, not literally!) spat at (seems quite common) shouted at and had car doors opened on me..etc. Whether illegal or not, if the road was pretty bad I would ride down the pavement.

Even with this, I still have good memories and would use one again.

[Bigmallly]

if the road was pretty bad I would ride down the pavement.

Did you hear that Organic?.........

[piskieinboots]

....Whether illegal or not, if the road was pretty bad I would ride down the pavement.

Blimey!

The roads are pretty bad everywhere just now, but 'us' drivers still have to use them!

How would you feel if a ped walked along the cycle path if there were holes in the pavement?