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First Leo spoke a bit about his year trying to live as ethically as possible. He said that the problem with EL with that there are no hard and fast rules, no 10 commandments that you can put up on your fridge to adhere to. When he had three "ethical auditors" to see him at home, they spent the majority of the time arguing with each other. It all comes down to personal priorities.
Leo said that there are many different groups of things that come under the EL umbrella:
Food - what you eat, food miles, seasonality, ethical production of food, fairtrade, organic etc
Waste - packaging, recycling, etc
Footprint - carbon emissions, power generation/consumption, etc
Consuming - clothes, luxuries, other non-food items
He wanted to tackle everything at once, but his wife suggested they try and focus on one thing at a time. He said that just doing the shopping was a nightmare at first and caused huge arguments. Should they buy from a supermarket or local producer? What would be their food mile limit? Would they by fairtrade/organic even if it has high food miles. They ended up with an empty trolley!
Eventually they found local markets and a veg box scheme, and it was easier that way.
He said the problem with things like this is that not everyone has access to local producers, or can grow their own food. Sometimes a supermarket can be the only option. E.g. they live in London, so a local producer generally comes from outside the M25, so is that local?
They then tried to reduce their waste by at least 50%. They tried to buy food with less packaging on (easier at markets etc than supermarkets), they tried to recycle as much as possible. They had the "nappy debate" - disposables or reusable's? Most people would go for reusable's, but thinking ethically, you have to consider the water and power they use when being washed/dried etc.
Leo spent a day following his rubbish to the landfill site, and was horrified when he saw the huge pit where everything gets dumped. He thought that every child should go and see a landfill - he said they were "awesome, but for all the wrong reasons".
He said that the whole experience was frustrating, because there are no hard and fast rules, sometimes the simplest thing has to be thought about in so many ways. Leo thinks part of the problem is just this - people who are newer to the experience of EL want rules to follow, not to have to have mini-debates every time you need to buy something or go somewhere.. He said there's also a lot of apathy, because people believe that they can't make a difference on their own, or that it's all a conspiracy made up by the government.
He then took some questions from the floor.
The first question was "Which is the most ethical way to travel to America?"
Leo said the most ethical way was not to go! But he discussed the pros and cons of flying versus sailing etc. He also talked about something called "Love Miles" (like food miles). I've never heard of these, but understand that it's something to do with how far you're prepared to travel to see friends and relatives.
He discussed the whole taxing flights more, and said that the UK is one of the only places that's trying to cut down on flights etc, as we're one of the only countries that has had such a boom in low-cost airlines and holidays. Leo said that around 60%+ of flights that depart from the UK are leisure flights, and that really you ought to have a purpose to your trip. Only you could decide whether going on holiday is a valid purpose.
This brought the topic neatly round to carbon emissions and offsetting. Leo thinks that the whole offsetting trend is a load of rubbish. The whole point of bringing attention to carbon emissions is to cut them, not offset them. By planting a tree (or 2 trees etc) it's doing something good for the environment, but not cutting emissions at all. He thinks that there's too much emphasis on buying the offsetting - is that ethical? People will not change their habits if you don't provide an incentive or put them off (i.e. raise prices, invest in newer engines and fuel technologies). People will believe that you can still fly four times a year as long as you plant a few trees - this is not ethical!
There was then a question about the impact of the media on EL. Does the media help or harm the cause? Does it trivialise the main issues?
Leo thought that there was a bit of both. The problem is that the media is so fickle and transient that sometimes the main points of issues are lost amid screaming headlines and sensationalist stories. He said that the Daily Mail found counter arguments to every green/ethical issue and that a programme C4 aired recently about global warming were points to note. He thinks there is not enough impartial reporting of facts, and instead everything is sensationalised. People often don't get the whole story or facts and this leads to people not knowing enough to do something about it.
(I lost the other points made in this question as the woman started breastfeeding a few seats away from me)
I then asked: "What is the best way of eating ethically? Is it growing your own, eating locally/foods with less miles, fairtrade or organically?
Leo said that this was one of the hardest issues to deal with. He said that nearly every option created problems with one of the other options. E.g. growing your own veg deprives local farmers, organically grown or fairtrade food often has high food miles.
Part of the issue is that the consumer-driven society has created markets elsewhere - the high demand for out of season vegetables, fruit and flowers has created mini-economies in places like Africa etc. By stopping buying these items, we crash this economy and therefore create problems for someone else - this is not ethical.
One of the ways this can be helped is with things like Fairtrade - this means that the grower has more help and the money we do spend is actually being used properly.
Not everyone can grow their own vegetables, or get to a local market etc.
Leo also noted that it is almost impossible to be totally self-sufficient, unless you have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the world, don't use money etc.
He said that the most ethical way to eat was by doing/supporting a little bit of everything. Grow your own or buy local, choose things with fewer food miles, if you have to buy things (such as coffee) which require higher food miles, buy fairtrade etc. He emphasised that there was no right way to do it, and it came down to personal circumstances and priorities. If you have 2 young children to feed, your priorities have to be feeding them healthy, nutritious food, sometimes regardless of where it comes from.
The last question was "Is it acceptable to break the law to live ethically?"
The person that posed this question was referring originally to protesting about Trident submarines. He had friends who were protesting peacefully (sitting in the road) and they were arrested and taken to the police station. Effectively, they were trying to be ethical, but had broken the law.
Leo said that this was a very grey area. He said that the criminal justice system was a bit of an ass when it came to things like this. He believes that non-violent protests (like the one described above) can be considered OK, even though they do technically break the law. He was reluctant to make any comments concerning some of the actions of animal-rights protesters for example.
He also touched on the subject of bio-terrorism and said that he was surprised that there had not been any incidents of this, given the amount of people who are slowly joining the green/ethical movement. He said he wouldn't be surprised if there were acts of bioterrorism in the next 5 to 10 years.
We had then ran out of time and everyone mobbed Leo to get him to either sign their book or ask him other questions.
Leo said that there are many different groups of things that come under the EL umbrella:
Food - what you eat, food miles, seasonality, ethical production of food, fairtrade, organic etc
Waste - packaging, recycling, etc
Footprint - carbon emissions, power generation/consumption, etc
Consuming - clothes, luxuries, other non-food items
He wanted to tackle everything at once, but his wife suggested they try and focus on one thing at a time. He said that just doing the shopping was a nightmare at first and caused huge arguments. Should they buy from a supermarket or local producer? What would be their food mile limit? Would they by fairtrade/organic even if it has high food miles. They ended up with an empty trolley!
Eventually they found local markets and a veg box scheme, and it was easier that way.
He said the problem with things like this is that not everyone has access to local producers, or can grow their own food. Sometimes a supermarket can be the only option. E.g. they live in London, so a local producer generally comes from outside the M25, so is that local?
They then tried to reduce their waste by at least 50%. They tried to buy food with less packaging on (easier at markets etc than supermarkets), they tried to recycle as much as possible. They had the "nappy debate" - disposables or reusable's? Most people would go for reusable's, but thinking ethically, you have to consider the water and power they use when being washed/dried etc.
Leo spent a day following his rubbish to the landfill site, and was horrified when he saw the huge pit where everything gets dumped. He thought that every child should go and see a landfill - he said they were "awesome, but for all the wrong reasons".
He said that the whole experience was frustrating, because there are no hard and fast rules, sometimes the simplest thing has to be thought about in so many ways. Leo thinks part of the problem is just this - people who are newer to the experience of EL want rules to follow, not to have to have mini-debates every time you need to buy something or go somewhere.. He said there's also a lot of apathy, because people believe that they can't make a difference on their own, or that it's all a conspiracy made up by the government.
He then took some questions from the floor.
The first question was "Which is the most ethical way to travel to America?"
Leo said the most ethical way was not to go! But he discussed the pros and cons of flying versus sailing etc. He also talked about something called "Love Miles" (like food miles). I've never heard of these, but understand that it's something to do with how far you're prepared to travel to see friends and relatives.
He discussed the whole taxing flights more, and said that the UK is one of the only places that's trying to cut down on flights etc, as we're one of the only countries that has had such a boom in low-cost airlines and holidays. Leo said that around 60%+ of flights that depart from the UK are leisure flights, and that really you ought to have a purpose to your trip. Only you could decide whether going on holiday is a valid purpose.
This brought the topic neatly round to carbon emissions and offsetting. Leo thinks that the whole offsetting trend is a load of rubbish. The whole point of bringing attention to carbon emissions is to cut them, not offset them. By planting a tree (or 2 trees etc) it's doing something good for the environment, but not cutting emissions at all. He thinks that there's too much emphasis on buying the offsetting - is that ethical? People will not change their habits if you don't provide an incentive or put them off (i.e. raise prices, invest in newer engines and fuel technologies). People will believe that you can still fly four times a year as long as you plant a few trees - this is not ethical!
There was then a question about the impact of the media on EL. Does the media help or harm the cause? Does it trivialise the main issues?
Leo thought that there was a bit of both. The problem is that the media is so fickle and transient that sometimes the main points of issues are lost amid screaming headlines and sensationalist stories. He said that the Daily Mail found counter arguments to every green/ethical issue and that a programme C4 aired recently about global warming were points to note. He thinks there is not enough impartial reporting of facts, and instead everything is sensationalised. People often don't get the whole story or facts and this leads to people not knowing enough to do something about it.
(I lost the other points made in this question as the woman started breastfeeding a few seats away from me)
I then asked: "What is the best way of eating ethically? Is it growing your own, eating locally/foods with less miles, fairtrade or organically?
Leo said that this was one of the hardest issues to deal with. He said that nearly every option created problems with one of the other options. E.g. growing your own veg deprives local farmers, organically grown or fairtrade food often has high food miles.
Part of the issue is that the consumer-driven society has created markets elsewhere - the high demand for out of season vegetables, fruit and flowers has created mini-economies in places like Africa etc. By stopping buying these items, we crash this economy and therefore create problems for someone else - this is not ethical.
One of the ways this can be helped is with things like Fairtrade - this means that the grower has more help and the money we do spend is actually being used properly.
Not everyone can grow their own vegetables, or get to a local market etc.
Leo also noted that it is almost impossible to be totally self-sufficient, unless you have absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the world, don't use money etc.
He said that the most ethical way to eat was by doing/supporting a little bit of everything. Grow your own or buy local, choose things with fewer food miles, if you have to buy things (such as coffee) which require higher food miles, buy fairtrade etc. He emphasised that there was no right way to do it, and it came down to personal circumstances and priorities. If you have 2 young children to feed, your priorities have to be feeding them healthy, nutritious food, sometimes regardless of where it comes from.
The last question was "Is it acceptable to break the law to live ethically?"
The person that posed this question was referring originally to protesting about Trident submarines. He had friends who were protesting peacefully (sitting in the road) and they were arrested and taken to the police station. Effectively, they were trying to be ethical, but had broken the law.
Leo said that this was a very grey area. He said that the criminal justice system was a bit of an ass when it came to things like this. He believes that non-violent protests (like the one described above) can be considered OK, even though they do technically break the law. He was reluctant to make any comments concerning some of the actions of animal-rights protesters for example.
He also touched on the subject of bio-terrorism and said that he was surprised that there had not been any incidents of this, given the amount of people who are slowly joining the green/ethical movement. He said he wouldn't be surprised if there were acts of bioterrorism in the next 5 to 10 years.
We had then ran out of time and everyone mobbed Leo to get him to either sign their book or ask him other questions.
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