Vegetarianism

[baldrick]

That's still niggling me, so I'll explain. I avoid eating with Himself's family (and we're expected to at least once a month). Even after 4 years they still question me about my food, trying to goad me into an argument, and all of them take my menu and order for me "oh you can have omelette; they do vegetarian lasagne, that's OK isn't it?;" like I not only can't feed myself properly but I can't read a menu either.

When they cook a meal for me, it has to be something super-fussy in pastry that "accidentally" contains animal fats, or comes covered with gravy from the meat tin .
Each and every time, I text ahead and ask for just a jacket potato, but in 4 years I've only had one. Last weekend I was told "you can't just have a jacket potato, so I ordered you a curry from the takeaway, it was £20 you know !!!" When I said I couldn't possibly eat that much curry on a hot lunchtime, I was made aware that the family was "trying to accommodate me". Guess what they all had? Jacket spuds, cooked in a tray with the chicken.

Jeez



oh, and then the men ate all the veggie curry after they'd had their chicken and spuds

yes I know that feeling. I also find it offensive that sitting down to a veggie meal gives people on adjoining tables the god given right to question someones choice and right to eat veggie....it does happen! I am no longer veggie through my own choice and for reasons explained, but would never ever dream of criticising someone elses choice...especially a complete stranger. My OH, a total unredeemable carnivore surprised the life out of me some time ago defending a work colleague who is vegan (I think rather than veggie), but has a number of rescued cats. She was being told she was a hypocrite for feeding her cats meat and allowing them out where they kill things. He told them to shut up and understand this woman reveres life, and that includes the lives of her cats, for whom she is doing her best. TBH there is no real argument against this. We are all hypocrites to a point. It is one of the curses of choices and knowledge. Snadger I cant come up with a convincing argument to go veggie or vegan over meat eater. Then I cant think of a convincing argument for the reverse either! Lots of fresh locally produced fruit grains and veg with or without locally produced animal products is the ideal, but its not possible all of the time whatever your diet because we are largely an urban society. You just have to go with what you feel is right for you personally.

[Snadger]

Oh right sorry, I was hanging back because I didnt want to go on about it! (Having probably already done so! ). Also because I didnt want to be accused of preaching/trying to 'convert' people/thinking that "my way is the right way". Because I don't, its just right for me, right now, on the basis of things as they stand. Obviously I am happy with the choice I have made, but I don't deal in black and white, nothing is absolute (no not even for a vegan - because, as has already been discussed, exploitation (whether human or animal or the environment) is involved in most parts of consumerism).

I can point you in the direction of some information I have come across, but no doubt there will be some bias on the way it is presented, but nonetheless I do find it very interesting, even if as a starting point.

This links to three other links about Food Security. I haven't read all three - just the one about UK Farming and Global Food Security: Global Food Security - The Vegan Society

There are also a couple of videos on the Vegan Society website that talk about environmental/ecological reasons to go vegan (sorry these are vegan rather than veggie but I am more familiar with the VS website for obvious reasons, than veggie ones). I can't link to them individually so I recommend watching ch 4, 5 and 6 deal with environment/farming issues, ch 3 is health I think. Be cautious with chapter 7 (the one titled Ethics) as it has some distressing footage I couldn't watch it I am afraid. Making the Connection - The Vegan Society

Again I am well aware of the potential arguments about bias of the source of these materials. It would be good to go back to the original source documents listed, such as the UN's "Livestock's Long Shadow" report, to read things in the original context.

Compassion in World Farming is a good website too: Compassion in World Farming - The farm animal welfare charity

A good book on the issue is "Eating Animals" by Jonathan Safran Foer, which has got great reviews by the Observer, the Times and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. He interviews farmers, activists, vegans, vegetarians, omnivores, slaughter-house workers etc. I've only managed to read the opening chapter so far as my OH was reading it (and I am building up to it! ). Here it is on Amazon: Compassion in World Farming - The farm animal welfare charity

And just to say that you can have an unhealthy vegan diet, just the same as you can have an unhealthy omnivore diet. If you live on processed junk food, the result will be pretty much the same. There is vegan chocolate, crisps, sausage rolls, cakes, biscuits, fake meats, and vegan pastry, even Bisto regular gravy granules are vegan, all readily available in the shops. If you don't cook with fresh vegetables, fruits, wholegrains, pulses, nuts, seeds, oils, etc then you are missing the benefits of those regardless of whatever else you eat, and making your body deal with a lot of unnecessary salt/fat/sugar. I don't mean on the Grapevine because I think on here more people than most are aware of where their food comes from and the effort taken to produce it. But many people say they don't have the time/money to cook proper meals with good quality ingredients, and rely on fast food/junk food/ready meals etc because its an easy fix when time/money is so pressurised for lots of people. I'm not judging, I am just saying its the way things are.

Found the first link you gave a really interesting site Helgalush. I will dip into it again & again!

[Snadger]

Tried to convince OH to try going veggie for a week or so as a trial. Her comeback was " Oh, fine, I don't eat a lot of meat anyway, I'll just have oxo gravy on my mash!!!!!!"

[taff]

I used to drink pints of so good soya milk, because of the taste, it was lovely. Now that I'm paranoid about Monsanto, i don't touch it, nor tofu, because I have no idea where the beans came from originally.

[Helgalush]

Found the first link you gave a really interesting site Helgalush. I will dip into it again & again!

Apologies - one of my links was wrong, instead of linking to Jonathan Safran Foer's book on Amazon I linked again to CIWF. I've put the correct link on now, in case you did want to have a look at the synopsis.

[Helgalush]

I used to drink pints of so good soya milk, because of the taste, it was lovely. Now that I'm paranoid about Monsanto, i don't touch it, nor tofu, because I have no idea where the beans came from originally.

I dont know if it helps but many brands offer organic soya, or explicitly say that the soya is non-GM (I know Alpro put that on their labels). The link I put above to Global Food Security seems to suggest that livestock are fed on 40% soya in the UK and 65% in Europe (hope I've understood that correctly), so it is still being consumed indirectly.

[dave_norm_smith]

I can't remember if it was ' Jimmy' when he was doing his series on food production and whether we could feed the planet long term, who raised the point that the growing of Soya was having a huge effect on the rainforest depletion as demand meant they were cutting it down to grow the crop.

Well let me assure you any if any of you 'non meat eating types' were to come to mine for food you would get a bit more than a cheese butty or meat gravy over a spud. I love to cook and try new stuff, so to me its just something different. I watched Gary Rhodes around India and I'm afraid I do not remember the region/ religion, but they never ate meat. The range of foods and flavours were incredible.

As I mentioned in my last post, for me, whether its a steak or an Aloo Gobi, the flavour is the key.

I also think that you would have to do a month or two Snadger to make an informed choice, I don't think a week would be enough. Did some body say Hugh did 8 months when writing his latest book?

Dave

[di]

Right you lot.
I started this thread hoping to hear some really convincing arguments as to why becoming a vegetarian is the 'right' thing to do!
Up until now all I've heard is that meat is bleugh, there's loads of good vegetarian cookbooks,parents were vegetarian so I am, health reasons dictated a change in diet, and the CJD scare was a start.
Sorry, but this all seems a bit 'wishy washy' to me. Please give me some facts and concrete reasons for to change.
One thing I will say is that the vegetarians on the vine deffo don't blow there own trumpet or ram it down your throat.
Trying to get some info off you lot is like pulling teeth!

I can only speak for me but I woke up one morning and knew I didn't want to eat meat anymore...it was purely on the grounds of not wanting an animal to be killed for me to eat,the thought of even having meat in my mouth made me gag.It was about me and my emotions at the time...no matter what arguments I'd hear...one way or another wouldn't have influenced me?So for me it's a personal thing...neither right nor wrong,just how YOU feel.x

[Hilary B]

Yep, my posts were mostly about "why I'm not vegetarian and see no reason to feel guilty about the fact", and slightly about "those whose reasons are about killing animals to eat, have you thought of THIS?"
My neice claims to 'pay the butcher conscience money', well my conscience isn't about the fact of meat eating, it's about the difficulty of finding non-exploititative meat. When we kept a sheep farm, and our meat was nearly all whatever lambs were unsaleable, it didn't bother me in the slightest!
Nearly every mammalian species is omnivorous if you want to be strictly precise, but some are more meat-oriented, and some aren't. Dogs are 'mainly carnivorous' by nature, humans are (by nature) omnivores 'designed' for a relatively small amount of meat in their diet, and omitting it (replacing with other items) is no problem healthwise (and often goes with paying more attention to the balance of the diet).
Just as a matter of interest, cats apparently can't be kept healthy on a veggie diet. One vegan I know of reckoned on feeding her cats road-kill. I can see the sense in that too.
Snadge, coming back to your original question, there is only one encompasing reason NOT to be veggie, and that is simply liking meat too much to go without entirely. Cutting down on meat is the compromise, maybe 3 days a week with NO meat, 3 with only the 'flavour' and a Sunday roast (leftovers to supply the 'flavour' on monday, tuesday wednesday perhaps?). If I could persuade OH, I would go for exactly that!
I'm waffling again......

[taff]

I dont know if it helps but many brands offer organic soya, or explicitly say that the soya is non-GM (I know Alpro put that on their labels). The link I put above to Global Food Security seems to suggest that livestock are fed on 40% soya in the UK and 65% in Europe (hope I've understood that correctly), so it is still being consumed indirectly.

Gotcha. Living where I do though, there are small organic farms that sell meat, sausages etc not far away at all, there's one less than a mile away from me, so I know anything they produce isn't indirectly affected by monsanto, and i can eat it fairly guilt free. This doesn't apply to the meat I'm given as presents by other people, so a certain amouint of struggling with the conscience is there with that stuff, versus the waste not want not idea....
it's all a balance of either consistently applying ethics to every situation, or conveniently forgetting to apply....for example, I drink tea with milk, I buy organic milk, but for the milk to be produced, there are calves being slaughtered somewhere..when I'm in work drinking tea, their milk is not organic, if I take my own in, someone nicks it, but I'm accustomed to drinking tea, and would rather drink that than anything else so i use their milk.
So for the most part, I apply my ethics to what meat I buy, and what dairy foods i buy, but I conveniently forget them on occasion, which makes me halfway ok in my book, but still not all the way ok.

[Snadger]

I can't remember if it was ' Jimmy' when he was doing his series on food production and whether we could feed the planet long term, who raised the point that the growing of Soya was having a huge effect on the rainforest depletion as demand meant they were cutting it down to grow the crop.

Well let me assure you any if any of you 'non meat eating types' were to come to mine for food you would get a bit more than a cheese butty or meat gravy over a spud. I love to cook and try new stuff, so to me its just something different. I watched Gary Rhodes around India and I'm afraid I do not remember the region/ religion, but they never ate meat. The range of foods and flavours were incredible.

As I mentioned in my last post, for me, whether its a steak or an Aloo Gobi, the flavour is the key.

I also think that you would have to do a month or two Snadger to make an informed choice, I don't think a week would be enough. Did some body say Hugh did 8 months when writing his latest book?

Dave

The point was that I do my shopping weekly i.e. no meat for that week then take it from there.............

[Snadger]

[QUOTE=Hilary B;900629]Yep, my posts were mostly about "why I'm not vegetarian and see no reason to feel guilty about the fact", and slightly about "those whose reasons are about killing animals to eat, have you thought of THIS?"
My neice claims to 'pay the butcher conscience money', well my conscience isn't about the fact of meat eating, it's about the difficulty of finding non-exploititative meat. When we kept a sheep farm, and our meat was nearly all whatever lambs were unsaleable, it didn't bother me in the slightest!
Nearly every mammalian species is omnivorous if you want to be strictly precise, but some are more meat-oriented, and some aren't. Dogs are 'mainly carnivorous' by nature, humans are (by nature) omnivores 'designed' for a relatively small amount of meat in their diet, and omitting it (replacing with other items) is no problem healthwise (and often goes with paying more attention to the balance of the diet).
Just as a matter of interest, cats apparently can't be kept healthy on a veggie diet. One vegan I know of reckoned on feeding her cats road-kill. I can see the sense in that too.
Snadge, coming back to your original question, there is only one encompasing reason NOT to be veggie, and that is simply liking meat too much to go without entirely. Cutting down on meat is the compromise, maybe 3 days a week with NO meat, 3 with only the 'flavour' and a Sunday roast (leftovers to supply the 'flavour' on monday, tuesday wednesday perhaps?). If I could persuade OH, I would go for exactly that!
I'm waffling again......[/QUOTE]

No you're not..........you're ideas make perfectly good sense!

[buzzingtalk]

Ok, some reasons to become vegetarian:

it is better for you - all of those extra vitamins and minerals. and before anyone goes on about protein and calcium, there is pleanty of it provided by nature in plants, especially leafy greens and beans which are incredibly easly to grow in the UK.

It is good for your bowels - a recent study (don't pull me up on it because i can't remember where i read it) found that vegans and veggies have much lower incidences of bowel and colon cancer - due to the food we eat moving quickly and efficiently through the digestive system. Red meat turns your gut into a graveyard, as some of it takes days and WEEKS to decay - which can cause havoc! Even if people were to reduce red meat consumption to once weekly and up other meat and fish, this is much better for you than lots of red meat as it 'sits' about for a while.

I find, even though I'm vegan, a big difference in what i eat in relation to my energy levels. for example, when i work all night (I do shift work in care) i eat meals at work which are generally stodgy, quite fatty and lacking in lots of fresh veg and i feel grumpy, tired and bloated. But at home when I'm cooking for myself, i am a lot more energetic and i believe this is due to better diet

and of course, environmental reasons - meat production is a big cause of pollution, animal rights protection etc.

i must state, I am a strange vegan. I cook, handle and prepare meat at work. i share grills with people at BBQ's. i don't have a problem with people eating, liking or even killing animals for food. i just hate the greed of it all; and the disattatchment from the origins of your food that the supermarkets present you with. The sheer scale of meat on offer, and the prices that drive down both the value of the meat and the animal itself, is what I have issues with. if everyone just took what they needed and were aware of how much less meat they needed to live on, it would be much better.

I saw someone at work have meat 3 times in a day...backon and sausage in morning, then ham for lunch, then some beef for dinner! Madness! No need for it, but in a society where dead animals are worth less than vegetables, i cant blame people for doing it. Going veggie costs money, not so much if you're single or have an understanding OH, but going vegan is very expensive. I can easily spent £60 on fresh food for just me and OH...hence the reason why i got an allotment

[buzzingtalk]

Also, do any veggies here eat that fake bacon stuff? it looks vile and I cannot understand for the life of me why anyone would want to eat it !!

[veggiechicken]

Fake bacon, chicken style fillets, beef style burgers,even fish style fingers. Its even shaped to look like the "real" thing. Yuk to it all. Give me a good honest to goodness, no pretence vegetable burger any day - but these are sadly hard to find ready made. Most of what is on sale is mass produced gloop. Emergency only food in my humble opinion.