Am back after hen tragedy

[snohare]

Could be bird flu, that will certainly be circulating in the general bird population. You might want to ask the vet if they can test for that...or then again, you might not !
Or God forbid, West Nile Disease. Although I think with that, you would probably be seeing mass die-offs amongst wild birds.
They do nestle their feathery way into your heart, don't they ?

[VirginVegGrower]

Wouldn't I see sneezing with bird flu? There has been no sneezing, coughing or gasping for air until late on when her breathing became laboured. Am determined to find out cause so I can save the other two but I don't want Madeline played with anymore than she has had to endure already. Couldn't even bury her/cremate her today - she's still in her box downstairs.
What is West Nile Disease?

[VirginVegGrower]

Just googled- not West Nile Disease - symptoms not same.

[chris]

Unfortunately for us, hens (as with most pets) are great at hiding, or at least trying to symptons/the fact that they're ill as I'm sure you're aware having dog(s?)/no doubt have been told before.

Chin up dude, I think that you've had bad luck with the two of them.. You could go for a post mortem if it's not too late (or heaven forbid, if another goes) to settle your mind, but try not to beat yourselves up about it! Xmas is coming soon, you seem have a list longer than all the hens in britain so that should take your mind off things

[Headfry]

VVG -This could be way off the mark but there is an avian TB going round in the wild bird world... I think?

[VirginVegGrower]

I don't know HF. We live edged to a copse one side and open fields the other. It is idyllic and I thought perfect for hens. We have double skin weld meshed everything for the hens as our primary focus was to keep fox/badger predators away. We constantly have buzzards, other birds of prey circling, magpies, pigeons, crows, etc. I never even thought they would/could bring harm to my girls.
I have asked my mum to contact the bird man - the town has a river and he looks after sick/injured swans. She knows him through the badger trust as he deals with those too. I think MikeyWills suggested wild birds as did my mum. What kills me is the girls loved their garden and if I have killed two of them through having them out of their run and getting a taste of freedom, I shall never forgive myself. I don't feed the wild birds in the garden, not since we had the hens. The wild birds can't get to their food. Although we have scattered corn for them to scratch but I am not doing that anymore - other people I'm sure do that though. The breeder we bought from did. My aunty, a farmer did.
Anyhow to answer your question I have emailed the RSPB. I have asked the local bird man via my mum. I am concerned about that dead pigeon under my car haven't seen any other carcasses lying around. With two terriers I am always checking the ground anyway. Thinking about it would I have seen dead birds with foxes around? Could badgers pass anything - we do have them all around us?!
My mum said she is sure there is something recently reported in the wild bird population that was sweeping the country - she does watch Springwatch and Autumnwatch programmes.
I am ringing the vet again this morning - I couldn't get my words out yesterday and I want some clarity around the diagnosis - chest infection tells me nothing. I am also going to call the breeder we had them from - see if he can enlighten me. He seemed very knowledgeable when we bought them. They were bought as vaccinated POL but is that just against things like Mareks disease?
I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks for another pointer.

[snohare]

The diagnosis of lung infection is pretty much a non-specific catch-all; it is one step up from saying "death from heart failure".
With viruses like bird flu, there is such a mix of varieties circulating in the wild, all mutating naturally within each host and even more so whenever they pass from one host to another, that it is impossible to expect any particular set of symptoms. This is why humans can often have a virus, even a cold, without symptoms - and then pass it on to someone who will have them.
Typically, when a virus passes from species to species in the wild or farming, it is due to different birds sharing living space. Free range ducks can be infected by wild ducks coming to rest for a meal or water; as viruses can be excreted in astronomical numbers in faeces, where UV and dessication will not affect them so much, this is one way that epidemics are often started amongst wildfowl, in shared waterholes. Previously publicised reports of low incidence of birdflu in the wild in the UK were erroneous; the Wildfowl Trust, who took samples from shot birds in a cheapo Government monitoring programme, failed to moisten the swabs before taking samples, which would result in the viral particles dying before arrival in the testing lab.
It sounds like your biosecurity is actually very good, if no other birds are able to share their accomodation, or even deposit droppings that they would come in contact with, that's gold standard, as good as it gets really.
Assuming lack of contact with other birds and their droppings, it sounds like bacterial or fungal infection is more likely. Both may arrive by air or via rainfall and/or the watertable; airborne is relatively rare, but species like Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis are so endemic even in soil (and just about every mammal associated, including rabbits and potentially badgers and cattle, where it could screw up the TB testing results) that it would be impossible to avoid a strain that became pathogenic.
I would guess that the RSPB and any local ornithological organisations are likely to be the folk who will know most about this sort of thing. They will spot it first, albeit only once it becomes common enough for widespread fatalities, and will probably have contacts in the scientific community who may have answers.
It may not be much consolation VVG, but your birds have as good a chance of survival as human beings would, if there is an epidemic of anything new going about.

[VirginVegGrower]

Thanks Snohare for answers I can understand. I have emailed the RSPB and told them. The bird man is coming up to see me tonight. Mr VVG is speaking with the vet and breeder. I had hoped where we live with lots of ground would be perfect for hens.
On the upside, I have now purchased an Eglu Cube and 3m run to try and save the other two. We had a traditional Forsham house which will be burnt/disposed of.
Do you get wildlife/big birds where you are or anyone else can answer that please. As I am thinking maybe it's not the idyll up here for them that I thought.

[Scarlet]

Hi VVG,

Sorry, I haven't really caught up on this so I don't really know symptoms and ages of your birds etc. But I do feel for you, the first birds to go are the hardest.

I too back onto open farm land, my chickens have access to trees, they run in large pens. I have dozens of pigeons in and around the garden, buzzards, crows etc - I have a pair of little owls that nest every year in the garden and I also have hanging seed feeders for tits and finches near the house. We occassionally see dead pigeons, or the remains of just after breeding time through to autumn (this weekend one half eaten by a fox). Jackdaws nest in all my chimneys! I don't seem to have suffered from this. (Apart from the occassional lice infestation which is dealt with.)

That said I would be surpised if your losses are due to your location. They should be well/fit enough to cope with their surroundings. They are farm animals.

How long have you had them? If they were young, they could very well have had some underlying problem before you brought them home/or from a sickly strain and it's also possibly that the two losses were not connected. Some weak birds just don't last.

Take your dead bird back to the vet and ask for a PM. Check over the remainig two, are they a good weight etc. Cut out the treats. Perhaps get a poo specimen and have it checked for a worm count.

Moving them around, changing houses etc could cause stress. Don't do too much all at once.

[snohare]

I am thinking maybe it's not the idyll up here for them that I thought

There is always a serpent in Paradise, VVG. Your reaction is entirely typical of anyone faced with mysterious illnesses, be it family or livestock:
"It's this place !".
But actually, that's just an instinct telling you to leave the scene of a disease outbreak, to avoid further cases. Burning structures is the other thing traditionally done - a universal reaction that also works well at combating pathogens.
In this instance, I think you can rest easy that wherever you were in the UK, just plain random bad luck might put you in the firing zone. It's not anything you have done wrong - outside circumstances have intruded in a way you couldn't avoid.
It's a bad time, I hope it passes soon for you.

[VirginVegGrower]

OK thanks everyone. All guidance, help and advice noted and hopefully I can save the two remaining. It's with a very heavy heart I go and get this new henny house tomorrow.

[Headfry]

Just a quick hi and hope you are ok
I got so upset when one of my three girls died. Hens find a special place in your heart dont they and, I still miss my girls.
Sadly not enough garden for them where I now live. But did get to 'snog' a beautiful cockerel at the Edible Garden Show in the spring.....he was a lovely chappy

hugs from a 'hen hugger'
HF
x

[VirginVegGrower]

You are lovely. We are all still really cut up about both losses but Madeline was my top hen and it's been dreadful. Still is for me and Mr VVG. I'll never get another Madeline, she was special.
Have just arrived at Omlet and of course there are Madeline look a likies everywhere. Think their's are hybrids and of course that's brought tears again.
If you're ever in Derbyshire you can come and hug a hen althought good luck catching Sage and Eloise. They are still very flighty and lacking in confidence after all this change.
Hugs back xxx