Economic growth

[Potstubsdustbins]

With regards to jobs I can only speak for my own profession gas and heating engineer.

With regards to the gas side of things we are an increasingly ageing profession and are desperately in need of new good lads/girls, however there are several obstacles.

The first I believe starts in school everything seems centred around the world of academia, pass this exam, pass that exam, go to uni etc. Schools used to have workshops to teach hand skills along side academic subjects, they appear to have disappeared. This also puts in the mind of youngsters that unless you go to uni you have no worth how wrong can that be.

The second is cost I have trained apprentices all my working life, starting at the age of 21 after passing my finals until 6 years ago. At the age of 59 I had a lad come on works experience for a week, he ended up working through his summer holidays and I was of the firm opinion I had found my last apprentice.

Now remember most plumbers, heating engineers and gas engineers are small concerns 1 or 2 men is the norm. I sat down and started to run the figures, minimum wage, college fees, insurance costs etc etc. To do the job properly it was going to cost plus of £400 a week in the first year, something I could not afford and so I never had my last apprentice. I was going to offer a true old fashioned 5 year apprenticeship, that lad would be out his time now, know his job inside out and be on at least 50K a year.

The third obstacle is the way you enter the gas industry nowadays. Many go to college and do a 2/3 year course. There they are they have passed all their exams with flying colours only then do they discover they are not allowed to practice their trade. First they must sit and pass an independent set of exams (assessments) before they are even allowed to sit these exams they must have a period of working with a registered engineer who signs off they course work as they progress. See the second obstacle above.

And thats why we are all miserable old buggers and why there are perfectly capable younsters sat at home instead of learning a good trade and earning a good living.

Sorry to go on but as you may well percieve its something that bugs me.

Colin

[donnakebab]

I wish I hadn't started this thread. I think it's safe to say we are all concerned about the future in a way that has changed from the concerns our parents had. I had a gap of 12 years between the birth of my first 2 children and even in that time I noticed a big difference in their social and educational experiences and not for the better. This is one of the reasons why I'm hoping they don't have any children themselves.

If I start a thread like this again somebody stop me. Sorry to have depressed any of you lovely people.

[zazen999]

Now remember most plumbers, heating engineers and gas engineers are small concerns 1 or 2 men is the norm. I sat down and started to run the figures, minimum wage, college fees, insurance costs etc etc. To do the job properly it was going to cost plus of £400 a week in the first year, something I could not afford and so I never had my last apprentice. I was going to offer a true old fashioned 5 year apprenticeship, that lad would be out his time now, know his job inside out and be on at least 50K a year.
...

And thats why we are all miserable old buggers and why there are perfectly capable younsters sat at home instead of learning a good trade and earning a good living.

Sorry to go on but as you may well perceive its something that bugs me.

Colin

In the construction industry - the employers get a grant to cover this from the CITB. It's what helped kick start the apprenticeships again. Do you not get one from your plumbing industry? Are you campaigning to the Sector Skills Council for your industry to get a grant?

[zazen999]

I wish I hadn't started this thread. I think it's safe to say we are all concerned about the future in a way that has changed from the concerns our parents had. I had a gap of 12 years between the birth of my first 2 children and even in that time I noticed a big difference in their social and educational experiences and not for the better. This is one of the reasons why I'm hoping they don't have any children themselves.

If I start a thread like this again somebody stop me. Sorry to have depressed any of you lovely people.

I think we can safely say that ALL threads about politics in general come with the assumption that people are concerned - but the concerns will always change from generation to generation, but in a way, they stay the same. But the thing I try to point out is that we go on about the yoof of today but who is it that taught and trained the yoof? Yoof are only trained by the older generation so people who complain about it only have themselves to blame.

I do believe that every generation has complained about school standards and about kids/teenagers/young adults - after all they are the easy option. I'm not having a go, but what do you expect when you start threads, people are bound to disagree in some parts and agree in others?

Do you think it ironic that you thought the next world war could be about water, but yet subsequent wars have been about oil?

I think the situation presents us with a huge opportunity to look at sustainability but without the people at the top being in the pockets of big business - we don't stand a hope of them doing anything for us - so we have to do it ourselves or support those that are doing it for you.

[Two_Sheds]

...6th largest exporter, i didnt know that, what on earth do we export!?

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I just asked Mr TS who's in the industry, and he says oil producing countries don't want refineries, so the oil comes here for refining, then sent back to them.
Half our gas comes from Russia

We are hugely dependent on oil ~ hence the wars? (who said that?)

[Potstubsdustbins]

In the construction industry - the employers get a grant to cover this from the CITB. It's what helped kick start the apprenticeships again. Do you not get one from your plumbing industry? Are you campaigning to the Sector Skills Council for your industry to get a grant?

Remember this was 6 years ago there was nothing around at that time and now at 65 its to late for me.

Even now I believe the grants to be limited on a time scale so would not see a proper apprenticeship through to its conclusion.

I am very old fashioned in my thinking (which I don't apologise for) but to me apprenticeships are to learn a trade/craft over a period of years not a 6 month course on how to fill shelves, flip burgers etc.

The lack of good training in our industry has lead to a dearth of home grown tradesmen that why the largest plumbing in London employs mainly people from the continent.

Colin

[zazen999]

Remember this was 6 years ago there was nothing around at that time and now at 65 its to late for me.

Even now I believe the grants to be limited on a time scale so would not see a proper apprenticeship through to its conclusion.

I am very old fashioned in my thinking (which I don't apologise for) but to me apprenticeships are to learn a trade/craft over a period of years not a 6 month course on how to fill shelves, flip burgers etc.

The lack of good training in our industry has lead to a dearth of home grown tradesmen that why the largest plumbing in London employs mainly people from the continent.

Colin

Of course apprenticeships are 3+ years training. Nobody said they weren't.

How would you have dealt with the lack of training? The only people that can train others are experiences tradespeople so if they opt out, what can be done? We can't magic experience out of nowhere.

[Potstubsdustbins]

I haven't opted out of anything except the last lad I was going to take on I have trained 7 lads in my time and I am glad to say I am in touch with them all. They are doing well 4 have their own small business 2 work for others and one is in Australia. Needless to say the last one is doing best of all.

Perhaps if we go back in time and they pay the craftsmen NO I am only joshing. But whilst it is wrong to make money out of a trainee we can't expect the craftsman to loose money. I don't have the answer but someone needs to come up with something before to long.

Colin

[stella]

We have just finished doing up our house and one of the most difficult things to do was to find plumbers, electricians etc. Well we could find them but they often failed to turn up for appointments, would not take on the job because it was too small, charged huge amounts and even charged extra for any small screw or things that they needed. One guy turned up with a trainee whose language was terrible. This was not 1 or 2 but most of them.

[snohare]

If I start a thread like this again somebody stop me. Sorry to have depressed any of you lovely people

Hey, it's not you. "It's the economy, stupid"
This is something that needs talking about, if you hadn't started this thread, someone else would have.
The more miserable and/or informed we are, the better off we are talking to others about it.
As far as lack of investment in apprenticeships is concerned, the magic words here were probably "creative destruction". The venture capitalists looked at the energy sector, realised that gas was likely to run out because everyone is bidding for it and we are a long way from source (what we produce is a pittance, unless we allow fracking) and decided to let the industry wither away while they start up the renewables sector. Standard practice in capitalism - what happened to the buggy whip makers.
Plumbers ? No big companies lobbying there with "consultants" and revolving door directorships for cabinet ministers and parliamentary committee MPs ? "Nah, cheaper to "buy in" expertise from Poland."
So twenty or thirty years down the line, here we are wishing we had the colleges employing people to train other people to keep an industry going, instead of giving jobs and money to other countries doing that...
It's an old old story you see repeated over the centuries - the politicians dodge the issue until a potential problem has become a dog's dinner and then it consumes most of their time and energy in acrimonious, inaccurate debate - and beggars the country, while screwing things up.
What's spectacular about this situation is that the whole nation has absolutely avoided ever looking at lots of vital issues, like some kind of en masse head-in-sand exercise, issues like oil supplies and sustainability, housing and population growth, lobbying and democratic accountability, the press, financial debt regulation etc...and now all these pigeons have come home to roost at the same time. The scale is absolutely unprecedented in history. It makes the fall of the Roman Empire look small.
We can of course decide not to let ourselves be made miserable by all this, by ignoring it. God knows, I know the feeling well, it's only human; who wants to sprain their brain thinking large scale ? Only problem is, this is one of those times when if we do not take an interest in history, we will not know when it is about to take an interest in us.
The more we refuse to think about or engage with this perfect storm, the more we cede all advantages to it. Think about it - do you trust the people in charge to sort this out, when they led us here ? What do you want for future generations ?
Look on the bright side - there's going to be a lot of very useful guano going about, if only you don't just sit around waiting until it lands in your dinner...

[Snadger]

Of course apprenticeships are 3+ years training. Nobody said they weren't.

How would you have dealt with the lack of training? The only people that can train others are experiences tradespeople so if they opt out, what can be done? We can't magic experience out of nowhere.

I often wondered why plasterers had to do a five year apprenticeship.............until I tried plastering for myself!

[Potstubsdustbins]

Your like me then Snadge, absolutely useless with a float am I. Do you remember the plasterer's labourer who made himself a millionaire? If I remember correctly his nick name was 'The Hod'

Colin

[Snadger]

Your like me then Snadge, absolutely useless with a float am I. Do you remember the plasterer's labourer who made himself a millionaire? If I remember correctly his nick name was 'The Hod'

Colin

I remember 'Snowy' from either 'Boys from the Blackstuff' or 'Auf Wiedersehen, Pet' (can't remember which?) the plasterer who was working on the fiddle. When the DHSS arrived he jumped out of the window to escape, but didn't realise he was five stories up!

[donnakebab]

I think we can safely say that ALL threads about politics in general come with the assumption that people are concerned - but the concerns will always change from generation to generation, but in a way, they stay the same. But the thing I try to point out is that we go on about the yoof of today but who is it that taught and trained the yoof? Yoof are only trained by the older generation so people who complain about it only have themselves to blame.

I do believe that every generation has complained about school standards and about kids/teenagers/young adults - after all they are the easy option. I'm not having a go, but what do you expect when you start threads, people are bound to disagree in some parts and agree in others?

Do you think it ironic that you thought the next world war could be about water, but yet subsequent wars have been about oil?

I think the situation presents us with a huge opportunity to look at sustainability but without the people at the top being in the pockets of big business - we don't stand a hope of them doing anything for us - so we have to do it ourselves or support those that are doing it for you.

In general I haven't got a problem with the youth of today...just some of their parents. I have no problem with my kids and they have caused no problem to others. I don't go looking for easy options to complain about. Education and the young are one of our most important resources (if not the most) but I don't think any government takes it seriously enough.

I don't think the next world war will be about water because any problem with a water shortage or rights mostly affects poorer nations. Nations with military power only get involved if there is something in it for them at the end of it. Nobody blinked an eye when China invaded Tibet.

In terms of technology oil is pretty much obsolete but it's going to be used to it's very last drop because a few men make lots of money out of it that they can use to make others do what they want, and they don't care who or what suffers along the way. That is the nature of man.

When I started the thread I knew that people would have different views. That is the whole point of discussion. I just don't like the idea that it makes people feel down.

Have a lovely day everybody

[cptncrackoff]

I think the problem with the next generation (i'm 28 so I'm excluding myself as 'too old') Is that schools/careers advisors/government are drumming into kids now that they must be have brilliant well paid careers, thats not out of the question for some, but kids then wont want to do the cr@p jobs.
How many kids say when asked 'I want to be a bin-man (or woman)
...or...'I want to sweep floors'
All valuable jobs that need doing and which there is no real shame in doing.
I left school in aug 2000, started work sweeping floors in a large tackle shop in sept 2000 for £60 per week on an nvq scheme, 11 years later, lots of hard work, taking opportunities and getting my head down I'm earning very slightly more than the national average.
The trouble is thousands of kids are leaving uni with an expectation of walking into 30k.