Whistleblower

[TEB]

Ahh yes fond memories (not) of good old DDT

[muckdiva]

because it's preferable to getting E. coli O157, which has been passed on via manure spread on organic (and also non-organic) salad.

I'm pretty happy with supermarket standards. I do use a local butcher for my meat, but not because I believe supermarkets are evil, only because I can get precisely what I want and have a chat at the same time. However, I believe that the supermarkets have higher food hygiene standards than my local butchers.

You can get something called Veggi Wash from health food stores which looks pretty harmless if you are really worried about E coli etc, but so long as things are washed properly in fresh water they should be relatively safe. When you see what a supermarket chicken is contaminated with during the processing, a bit of mud on veggies doesn't seem so bad.

[SimonCole]

SimonCole, I think you are winding us all up for a laugh

No, honestly I'm not

My department specialises in agriculture and diseases spread from fields. I can tell you that we are all very worried about E.coli 0157, as HappyMouffe rightly pointed out and you probably would not believe how it's spread. If you have just eaten or are of a nervous disposition, don’t read below!
It would seem that given the current gap in legislation, anything that improves soil fertility can be spread on fields. This has allowed sewage sludge and abattoir waste to be spread on fields and in some cases, you can see red fields caked in blood. It is cheaper for this waste to be disposed in such a way because even though it has a minimal benefit to soil fertility, incineration is just too expensive. When I say abattoir waste I don't mean just blood, anything under a couple of inches is often spread. Obviously, this allows a range of pathogens to grow and on that basis... I'd rather have my food washed in chlorine. The chlorine is in levels below that of drinking water anyway. All that said, manure spreads the most disease.

I shouldn't have to defend preservatives, so I won't.

The thing with farmers markets is that anyone trying to make a quick buck can disappear when it is found out that their meat is contaminated. Setting up a stall in a market means that you're there one day, gone the next! The same applies to veg. Can anyone remember the programmes exposing butchers' that sold shoddy meat? ...the environmental health officer ones? They made me think again.

Both my local butcher and greengrocer sell stuff from around the globe and I think it's the same with my baker, whom I use regularly. I guess I'm trying to say that local produce is more of a rarity in my local shops and when I can get it, it's double the price.

[moggssue]

So, other than growing our own of course, where can we go to ensure we get fresh, healthy food? This is all getting rather worrying, I don't know who to trust any more?!

[HappyMouffe]

Moggssue, Trust your own common sense. The only thing I really worry about eating is chicken cooked on a barbeque. Organic/non-organic, from a butcher/supermarket they're all likely to contain Salmonella or Campylobacter. Luckily, they're easily destroyed by thorough cooking.

As for pesticide residues, I'm more concerned about all of these chemicals that air freshener companies suggest we should plug in and pump into our houses every thirty minutes.

And preservatives are great. I like smoked salmon - however, the smoking process probably introduces more carcinogens into the fish than any controlled addition of preservatives would. Formaldehyde is one of those chemicals - often used for preserving body parts for histology. Sodium benzoate, an 'E number' is found in higher levels in cranberres than it is legally allowed to be added as a preservative.

I've seen what a supermarket chicken is contaminated with when its processed, and it appeared to be the same as what contaminated the chickens I've seen slaughtered in small processing plants and when I've seen a small turkey farmer dress his carcases.

I'm obviously in favour of growing my own, which is why I enjoy this forum so much, but I'll never be self sufficient. I'm happy to shop in a supermarket, but respect all others wish to shop locally (which I also do). Production of food for supermarkets is (in the vast, vast majority) done in a far more hygienic and controlled way than I could ever hope to do at home, and I audit food safety standards, and teach food safety to degree level.

[valmarg]

I think this thread has descended into science fiction and scaremongering!!

SimonCole, where do you work? What is your department? I think you really do overstate your case (and I'm not convinced that you are not 'winding us up.)

I'm not sqeamish, but I find it hard to believe that blood and guts are scattered all over this green ane pleasant land.

Why shouldn't you have to defend additives. One of the ingredients of Hellmans mayonnaise is formalin. This is a poison. It is used in biology labs for the preservation of specimens. Why is it there??

I think for Farmers' Markets you should substitute Car Boot Sale. We have been attending the Bakewell market for about five years. The same stallholders are there month after month. There are no fly-by-night stallholders! If they had sold me anything I was not happy with, they would be left in no doubt (to date this has not happened). The fact that they are there 'month after month' to my mind, means that they are proud of their their products, and I have no problem buying from them. In fact the food I buy there is wonderful, and all locally produced!!

With regard to your local butcher, greengrocer and baker selling 'stuff' from around the world, and local produce being a rarety in your area, I can only pity you.

Yes greengrocers have no option but to buy produce from around the world. My parents had a greengrocery shop (from 1936 until 1972) and oranges always came from Spain, bananas from the Canaries some apples from South Africa and Australia, all 'shipped in'.

Bakers used to be able to buy the American and Canadian hard wheat to make flour for bread (very high in gluten). Thanks to the EU we have to put up with the European soft rubbish.

With regard to meat, if you cannot buy locally produced, I just find it unbelievable.

Oh, and yes I can remember programmes exposing people selling 'shoddy meat'. This was usually chicken, and I think the Bernard Matthews fiasco highlights what happens in this market. It is also another reason why I will never buy supermarket chicken.

valmarg

[OverWyreGrower]

II think for Farmers' Markets you should substitute Car Boot Sale. We have been attending the Bakewell market for about five years. The same stallholders are there month after month. There are no fly-by-night stallholders! ... The fact that they are there 'month after month' to my mind, means that they are proud of their their products, and I have no problem buying from them. In fact the food I buy there is wonderful, and all locally produced!!

I was thinking about our local FM. Nearly all the stall holders have another shop on their farm premises etc, so are hardly fly-by-night. After I got chatting to various stall-holders, I've found out so much. The lady on the jam and chutney stall shared her tips and recipes with me, and since buying local ostrich meat, we've been to visit the ostrich farm - very informative!

I'm sure that the reason most products are loaded with chemicals/additives/preservatives is to promote and prolong shelf-life. Years ago people managed without E-numbers and chlorine etc in food (not that there weren't other things put in food then)

I'd rather grow my own than buy something from a field god-knows-where, that has been pumped with/sprayed with/washed in god-knows-what. I'd rather buy my meat from someone who I trust, where I can go to the farm and see the animals myself if I want, than pre-packaged, pumped-full-of-water stuff.

My kitchen probably isn't that hygenic (what with the dog counter-surfing a lot these days) but I've never had food poisoning from things I've grown/made/cooked.

[dan1979]

Make sure you're farmer's market is certified!

My local one isn't and a new stall turned up amazingly well stocked with loads of fruit and veg - friendly chap, talking away about his orchards and how he doesn't use pesticides.

Heard via another stall holder that he'd been investigated and banned by the certification people for buying in his stuff - I confirmed this with them

I also bought some apples from another stall, when I came to eat them they had round sticky marks where labels had clearly been removed. The same stall also sold tomato plants - exactly the same tags on them as the local garden centre and the local street market! Unless they specifically tell you it's grown by them they're not doing anything wrong.

Whilst some of the producers are genuine and do great stuff there's the <insert expletives> that spoil it.

Went to an certified (and organic) market and the range of fruit and veg was pitiful, it's tempting to ignore trying to get the 'best' and buy everything from the street market which is far cheaper than the alternatives.

[HappyMouffe]

One of the ingredients of Hellmans mayonnaise is formalin

And that's not scaremongering? Apologies if you work for Unilever and know any secret ingredients, but having just looked at my jar of Hellmann's mayonnaise which I have in the fridge, I can see no sign of it on the ingredients.

[SimonCole]

SimonCole, where do you work? What is your department? I think you really do overstate your case (and I'm not convinced that you are not 'winding us up.)

I study Environmental Science at Bangor University. Sorry if I've overstated things a bit.

Here's a bit reported by the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1859653.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r...week/69303.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1433477.stm

I also thought that this article was interesting, but you can't believe everything you read:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2493619.stm

[sewer rat]

I agree with dan1979 re certified farmers markets. my local farmers markets - Inverness, Dingwall and Dornoch - are not certified and I know for a fact that one stallholder buys his stock from Lidl's the day before !!!!!! He used to grow his own stuff but hasn't for the last couple of years, but sells his bought in produce as home grown.
However, the tomato plant issue is not as clear cut. I have grown 13500 young veg plants from seed for my local garden centre, in pots and packs, and each plant or pack has a label that I bought for it. I also sell these myself, so the labelling issue is not necessarily any indication of provenance.
On the matter of a poor range of organic veg, organic produce is pretty much grown with the seasons and so will just be coming onto the market now. Field grown veg is grown in much the same way as most of us grow in our gardens but economies of scale means it isn't quite as pampered, so it grows with Mother Nature, not against it.

[libbyloulou]

Dan 1979 : said
Went to an certified (and organic) market and the range of fruit and veg was pitiful, it's tempting to ignore trying to get the 'best' and buy everything from the street market which is far cheaper than the alternatives.

I would expect a truly organic markets food offerings to be slightly less appealing than supermarkets for obvious reasons, i try to be organic as i can, but still get the odd hole in my apples, lettuce with the odd holed leaf, a nibbled this and that, if i went to a proper organic sale and things where perfect, i know i'd walk away.

[dan1979]

The problem for me was the uncertified market had so much choice and things were virtually perfect so I'm very skeptical of it.

I know they run farms but there's a big grey area of how much they grow themselves and how much is 'topped up' with no way to know for sure.

[moggssue]

Well, I think I will listen to happymouffe - common sense should be liberally applied! We all wash and cook our veg (dont we?) and so should rid any nasties - besides, there's the whole 'too clean' debate as well, that a little dirt is good for us. This doesnt, tho, rid the issue of 'food miles' and environmental costs. The whole debate could go in circles for ever, a bit like some supermarket veg seems to!!

[Alison]

Well, I think I will listen to happymouffe - common sense should be liberally applied! We all wash and cook our veg (dont we?) and so should rid any nasties - besides, there's the whole 'too clean' debate as well, that a little dirt is good for us. This doesnt, tho, rid the issue of 'food miles' and environmental costs. The whole debate could go in circles for ever, a bit like some supermarket veg seems to!!

Don't have any problems with a bit of dirt, it's some of the unnecessary chemicals I have concerns about.