Organic or Green

[Stacey]

You need to think about what the Soil Association stands for. Its much more than whether or not your carrots are organic. They bring fair trade into it aswell. Though as you point out fairtrade isnt that much better. I do believe that the soil Association has alot to do with the politics of food and green issues. To be organic is in a sense to be green also,wether thats why you buy/grow it that way or not. The soil association is right to consider removing their label from air freighted food. Yes it is still organic,therefore it will still be able to bear an organic logo. It just wont be the S.A's.

[Snadger]

I know vaguely what the requirements are for vegetables and fruit that are labelled 'Organic' in the UK and I can equate to this!
I don't know what the requirements are for foreign organic produce or that it is policed correctly?

I tend to Buy British when I can but there aint many Orange or Banana plantations in the UK!

First I look at country of origin then I look at organic status.

Does this make me green but not organic?

[Stacey]

I suppose it would depend on how your oranges and bananas got into this country. And where you buy things from. Lets face it, if you buy from Tescos Your NOT green, even if your clubcard says you are. But if you go to your local organic/fairtrade shop you probably are green. But once again in my view green and organic go hand in hand anyway wether you want them to or not. How can you be "green" but be happy to buy air freighted organic food or local pesticide ridden food? And if you class yourself as "organic" if its for health reasons your still helping the environment(if buying food not air freighted). And if you buy organic because you want to support environmental welfare you are definately being green. Therefore organic and green go hand in hand. Either you embrace them together or you're quite possibly being a hypocrite (not aimed at you Snadger,its aimed at no one,just a generalisation).

[Snadger]

I suppose it would depend on how your oranges and bananas got into this country. And where you buy things from. Lets face it, if you buy from Tescos Your NOT green, even if your clubcard says you are. But if you go to your local organic/fairtrade shop you probably are green. But once again in my view green and organic go hand in hand anyway wether you want them to or not. How can you be "green" but be happy to buy air freighted organic food or local pesticide ridden food? And if you class yourself as "organic" if its for health reasons your still helping the environment(if buying food not air freighted). And if you buy organic because you want to support environmental welfare you are definately being green. Therefore organic and green go hand in hand. Either you embrace them together or you're quite possibly being a hypocrite (not aimed at you Snadger,its aimed at no one,just a generalisation).

How can organic and green go hand in hand when buying foreign organic produce then?

[beefy]

What does being Green have to do with being organic?????

Just found this PW .Got yourself a real can of worms here .
Some people will say nothing at all - organic is organic and green is green.

I would argue that organic and green are tied to each other and one effects the other.Why eat organic food that has been grown without chemicals but has to be flown round the world using petrochemicals poluting the air ? To me this kind of person is just using the organic label as a fashion statement.

I suggested in another thread that organic food that used nuclear fuel wasn't really organic to which I think you (PW) replied that at least it didn't produce carbon emissions.Fair enough but what about the toxic waste?

I guess what Im trying to say is that the complete process from seed to plate should be as completly friendly to the world as posssible.Its easy to pick out the parts that suit your choices but sometimes you have to dig a little deeper and examine what else is affecting the choices you make and how they sit with each other.

[pigletwillie]

I concur Beefy, they should be linked but but why only remove their approval from airfreight and not to stuff delivered by boat.

[Peter]

I concur Beefy, they should be linked but but why only remove their approval from airfreight and not to stuff delivered by boat.

Because a boat does not produce anything like the emissions of an airplane.

In theory boats could return to using sail and using solar derived electricity instead of loads of sailors to hoist and adjust the sails.

I do however concur with the point you are making PW, food miles MUST count. The lack of a field margin in the UK is lower impact than the clearance of hundreds of acres of virgin rainforest.

Labelling is a problem though, as it is often unclear, especially by omission.
As an example I only buy bananas from the Windward Isles, but do the supermarkets make it clear where they came from? Oh no, I have to examine the main box.
Most are Dominican Republic, Anerican firms and high input agriculture.
Windward Isles is a former British colony and I'd rather support their economy.

[jacob marley]

I think what has the soil association got to do with soil managment abroad surely they only have clout in GB not abroad i have seen sprouts from australia and shallots from tasmania that probably been grown as good as any thing grown here just a waste of time and energy getting it here i actualy saw some cyder vinegar in Tesco's last week where the organic was 10 p a bottle cheaper than the inorganic same brand and size bottle thats got to be a first
Jacob

[Alison]

To be truly green is to tread a tightrope on a day to day basis. In my oppinion, part of this relates to organic produce in that it reduces the chemicals etc used in production and therefore the effects on the earth. However, I don't actually believe that organic with a capital 'O' covers things such as food miles, etc but this is quite obviously a green issue and therefore of great importance to myself. Many people who chose to eat organically are also concerned about other green issues but if somebody eats organically simply to improve their diet (yes, there's another can of worms!) then in theory there is no reasonn for them to be concerned about global warming.

Personally I would ideally like to eat local organic, in season produce but it really isn't possible to be perfect on this one and therefore I tend to go with the local inorganic when an organic alternative is not available, or chose to eat something else. I eat very little veg that has come from outside the UK (but that can still have quite serious food miles) which I buy from local shops, markets etc. Where possible I try to buy stuff that has been grown in my county or one of the neighbouring ones. I buy meat likewise whenever possible or on occaisions buy bulk from further away. In addition, have reduced the amount I eat. Fish I'm currently stuggling on but am endeavouring to check that it is coming from sustainable sources. I do buy bananas but, personally I'm always most comfortable with fair trade ones. Nowhere near perfect but an awful lot better than I was 5 years ago and I'll keep trying to improve.

[Alice]

I just like to apply a bit of common sense. The supermarket had onions from New Zealand !!!! I don't care whether they were organic, green, 18ct gold plated ! I left them there - and shake my head in wonder.

[beefy]

I just like to apply a bit of common sense. The supermarket had onions from New Zealand !!!! I don't care whether they were organic, green, 18ct gold plated ! I left them there - and shake my head in wonder.

Totally agree Alice ,organic or not if the item can be sucessfully grown or cultivated in this country why does it have to be brought from the four corners of the world?
It has to be more friendly to grow those crops here rather than ship them round the world.

[Alice]

Well Beefy, things will only change when shoppers are prepared to leave sellers with things they are not prepared to buy. When the shopper leaves the supermarket with the onions from New Zealand. the beans from Kenya,
the strawberries from Israel, and the flowers from Nicuaraga all lying on their shelves - well, the world will be a different place. And do we need any of these things.
Beefy, I'm sure you know this reply is not directed at you. It's just in response to your post. And it's why I can't cope with the supermarket.

[beefy]

Well Beefy, things will only change when shoppers are prepared to leave sellers with things they are not prepared to buy. When the shopper leaves the supermarket with the onions from New Zealand. the beans from Kenya,
the strawberries from Israel, and the flowers from Nicuaraga all lying on their shelves - well, the world will be a different place. And do we need any of these things.
Beefy, I'm sure you know this reply is not directed at you. It's just in response to your post. And it's why I can't cope with the supermarket.

Fully understand Alice .No offence taken and I know none was intended.
Supermarkets will only stop selling items when there is no demand for them.
When the public realise that foods have seasons and everything is not available all year round or on demand then we might start to get somewhere.

[Alice]

You're right Beefy, but people are so divorced from where their food comes from that I don't know how you would start to get the message over. So many people don't know that you can't have strawberries in December , or that you can grow strawberries or that the strawberries they buy in the supermarket are horrible !
Where would you start ? For they know as much about anything else as they know about strawberries.

[Earthbabe]

I have been pondering this one as, as many have highlighted it is not as straightforward as it seems. When you consider supermarket food there is also the issue of packaging - most of which is plastic, hence petro-chemical derived. Some things now come in biodegradable tubs with the funny wrapping that apparently can also go on the compost - I'll keep you posted on that one. There are also issues with supermarkets flying goods out of the country to be packaged and then flying them back in. Double whammy on the airmiles front.

There is also the issue of heating and lighting. Yes we can buy cucumbers (for example) out of season in this country or from Europe but how much additional energy has gone into producing them at the coldest time of the year - hence why the increasing attempts to raise awareness of buying in season produce by the likes of HFW and others. This is something that GYOers also feel very passionately about.

If someone is keen to improve their diet then in season produce is the best as it is at the peak of nutrients etc. Ideally this should be locally produced not just to reduce food miles but to minimise the time from field to fork, providing a food item full of flavour and nutrients, at the peak of ripeness etc. Some foods we know taste much better straight from the plot, potatoes and sweetcorn being the prime examples.

I find supermarket shopping difficult because I hate the noise, bright lights, pressures and rampant consumerism. You see trolleys laden with foodstuffs and know that a lot of the food may be wasted (landfill), the packaging will be inappropriately disposed of (landfill) rather than reused or recycled and most of it is unneccessary. There are hundreds of cars in the car park at most times - the exception being overnight when the supermarket that is open 24 hours a day is burning all its lights for a handful of people.

I confess I sometimes give in however I try to minimise the amount I buy from larger shops. The greengrocers in the High Street don't always label produce with its origin but they are a small trader and could probably tell me if I asked.

Fairtrade is another issue. Most of the products supplied through fairtrade are not produced in this country although there was talk of extending the label to cover some items produced in this country to ensure our farmers were paid fairly for their produce. You could argue that if it is not part of our economy do we actually need it. Well I know I don't need to buy chocolate but a small well considered bar occasionally is a treat, a luxury and I make it last.

My aim is usually to buy in season, locally (UK) produced and organic if available. Fairtrade if available for things like bananas. If not I try to carefully consider all aspects before the item goes in my basket or trolley. Not perfect I know but I am only human. I am an avid label reader for ingredients and as I try to avoid processed food this has been channelled into labels generally.