Organic or Green

[pigletwillie]

I think you have hit the "link" right on the head there EB.

The word "seasonality" and how few of the supermarket lemmings know what it means.

Wouldnt it be nice if Tecos sold local, seasonal, organic produce that came in a recycled hemp bag.

No New Zealand onions in May and no nasty tomatoes and strawberries in December.

[Flummery]

Green for me comes ahead of organic. Air miles are a no-no where possible. Even non-organic British produce has certain standards regarding permitted pesticides which don't apply in the wider world so I'll go with reasonably local rather than flown in. Flown-in organic worries me! Also worried by the fact that 'British' seafood can be flown abroad to be shelled then flown back and still be marketed as 'British' because it's 'cheaper' than getting local labour to shell them. I wonder how often we know the truth about what we are buying. No wonder so many grow what they can at home.

[dan1979]

So what happens if all the stuff you want is imported?

A lot of people don't have any choice but to shop at supermarkets.

[OverWyreGrower]

But what most consumers don't realise is that we don't need Strawberries in January, or onions from New Zealand.

People have got too used to having out-of-british-season fruit and veg all year round. They don't give a thought to where it comes from or how it was grown.

Surely not everything you "want" is imported? You can get British potatoes and carrots etc, and so you may have to go without broccoli in June.

I wonder what will happen in a few years time when we can no longer get food from abroad (flown in/boated in)? People will have to start cooking and storing food in a different way and I suspect whole lifestyles will change because of it.

[TEB]

I think you have hit the "link" right on the head there EB.

The word "seasonality" and how few of the supermarket lemmings know what it means.

Wouldnt it be nice if Tecos sold local, seasonal, organic produce that came in a recycled hemp bag.

No New Zealand onions in May and no nasty tomatoes and strawberries in December.

The UK biggest Strawberry producer transports in about 1400 eastern european workers annualy - not very green there then hey - Onions in May from New Zealand are seasonal and shipped (boat) in is this greener than the migrant workers case, not many things are clear cut and we never know all the details.

[Stacey]

How can organic and green go hand in hand when buying foreign organic produce then?

well obviously its not completely green but it is greener than buying non organic food that is air freighted over. Though of course ideally as has been said, we would all buy local organic.

[Snadger]

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink! People can't be forced to shop green or organic or both. We live in a democracy and are free to do as we please!

I think we each have to shop according to our own beliefs and budgets and be tolerant of others.

Surely if we grow our own these ethical food debates will become less and less relevant to ourselves anyway?

[Alison]

So what happens if all the stuff you want is imported?

A lot of people don't have any choice but to shop at supermarkets.

I didn't realise how much choice I had until I started looking around, since then I've found numberous farmers shops, markets, small scale shops and box schemes open to me. Prior to this I used to moan that there was nothing about as if I acutally expected people to come to me. Yes, it takes a bit more effort in the first place but not now I'm used to it. I now eat by picking what looks the freshest and then deciding how to cook it rather than starting with the recipe book and looking for the ingredients to fit. As a result I actually eat a wider range of foods and feel better for it.

[moggssue]

I have never thought of myself as either green or organic, just concerned for the environment and planet on which I live as well as for my own, and my loved ones, health and happiness. I can't stand the idea of all those airmiles, especially for things like runner beans which so easily grow in the UK. organic in the sense of no chemicals used to grow the veg, but what about the chemicals produced during their packing and transportation? I breath the air polluted by the planes which fly them in and have to watch local farmers struggling because nobody wants their fresh, misshapen veg when they can buy pretty, identically shaped veg from tesco in lovely colourful packaging (sarcasm here folks before you shoot me down in flames!). I'm not perfect by any means but hopefully getting better all the time - I totally agree with teh posts above that we need to educate everyone - it IS possible (desirable) to live without strawberries in December (as an example), I enjoy them all the more for having to wait and dont take them for granted. Sorry, I'm rambling so I'll stop and hope you understand what I'm saying here!

[Earthbabe]

...Also worried by the fact that 'British' seafood can be flown abroad to be shelled then flown back and still be marketed as 'British' because it's 'cheaper' than getting local labour to shell them....

Best way round that one is to shell your own

...I think we each have to shop according to our own beliefs and budgets and be tolerant of others.

I agree. At the end of the day I think it is about informed choice and taking a responsible attitude to those choices and their consequences. We may not agree with someone else's choices but if they have been made in an informed and responsible manner and the person accepts that there are consequences and owns that so be it. Unfortunately not everyone is aware of that. As Alice says when you start looking you can be amazed at what you find for very little effort. Many of our countrymen and women don't look and are happy with mindless convenience. Shame because we know how much they are missing out on.

Surely if we grow our own these ethical food debates will become less and less relevant to ourselves anyway?

For the food we grow anyway. There are still things we aren't producing for ourselves and there similar principles will have to apply. We have to learn to think about our shopping, our consumption and wants. There are so many issues you can introduce into the debate when you consider items other than foodstuffs that you could end up paralysed with doubt. Somewhere a choice has to be made. Of course the decision could well be that actually the item is not required. Great. If it is required I suppose you have to make the best choice you can with the information at your disposal and accept that it may not be 100% perfect. Such is life and such is being human.

[Protea]

I apologise in advance if i offend anyone here, but for me the very thought of buying anything labelled as 'organic' is laughable. I go out of my way to avoid buying organically produced food (fruit and veg only - meat is another matter). The reason? i know what gets sprayed onto organic crops, i sell some of it! The Soil Association is a joke - you are led to believe that 'organic' food has not had any 'evil' pesticides sprayed on them - complete rubbish! of course it has, its just different pesticide to conventional crops. In reality most of the sprays used are nastier than the conventional ones e.g. nicotine used to kill aphids.

A quote from an article about copper sprays on organic potatoes, in my trade magazine 'Commercial Grower':

"A Scotish self-described 'potato enthusiast' is promoting a little known Hungarian spud as a solution for organic growers worried about the toxicity of copper. As they do not use ordinary pesticides, some organic growers spray with a solution of copper oxychloride to ward off deadly blight. Fife's Alan Romans sees it as problematic, 'its a heavy metal after all, there simply hasn't been enough research into its toxicity'...."

Yum, yum - anyone for organic potatoes?

Meat on the other hand is a different matter - i generally buy local free range where possible, and that may or may not be organic. I have issues with the organic idea of not treating animals with drugs when they are sick - animal welfare comes first in my book, antibiotics or not. In general though, free range and organic meat tastes so so much better than mass produced stuff.

I do shop at Tesco's as i have no choice (local farmers market clashes with work hours and local farm shops have silly opening hours and don't have the quality), but i am really anal about buying British - and if its out of season then i will buy produce like broccoli or lettuce from Spain or Portugal - purely because i know its the british growers' Spanish operations growing it, and their protocols are just as strict as their in season british ones. Plus - if it comes from Spain or Portugal its trucked over here, rather than flown. I have found some fabtastic places to buy meat locally, and regularly buy beef from my local farmer, and have sourced a good chicken, lamb and pork supply within a 30 min drive too.

For me, its not abut being organic or green, per se - its about being sustainable, and i know that many of the farmers i work with are busting a gut to be more sustainiable and improve the environment on their farms and in their working practices.

[Flummery]

I know the chap who raises organic beef heareabouts sprays his fields and uses feed from local farms - not organic. It has always made me wonder how strict the rules are (and what they do allow, as you point out, Protea.)
Hate air-miles though. It's only ground-yards to my vegetables!

[Birdie Wife]

I also look at the packaging when buying meat and veg - too much, or non-recyclable stuff like hybrid materials (eg plastic stuck to card/foil), and I'm very unlikely to buy it. For me it comes down to a choice of what's seasonal and what's in the shops on the day.

Protea raises a strong argument, and I think the real problem is that we just don't have enough information to weigh up all the pros and cons of what we buy. But for the vast majority of the population, we don't want to think too hard about what we're buying, so we trust the Soil Association logo as it should be (but obviously isn't) a mark of ethical growing.

[witch-1]

I shop with regards to my purse Sometimes its organic, sometimes its green, sometimes fairtrade and sometimes its the ingredient thats needed for my meal!

In the past year since my life has changed (another story) I have started to look at different options, but a life spoiled by choices its hard to let go! We have been composting for over a year now, and recycling what we can within reasons for the collection box... this last month we have decided to recycle plastic too.

I buy biodegradable sandwich bags for my kids lunches. I don't use plastic bags from supermarkets where possible. We have for the first time made veg beds to grow some of our own. We have a second compost bin delivered, and two water butts. We are looking to the future of buying a smallholding and to expand on this theme... each move takes us closer to being greener but not necessarily organic!

Definately two separate topics but one that can in some instances clash.

Interesting thread...

Jan
x

[moggssue]

Some of the posts on this thread have made me think much more about the benefits of green and/or organic, not just to me but to the environment - its good to see other points of view rather than blindly carrying on with old habits. Keep the responses coming vines - a very interesting and eye opening thread!