Organic or Green

[Peter]

Vehicular point.

A variation on the green theme is the enthusiasm with which the trendy people are embracing hybrid or electric vehicles, in particular the "Prius" as being wonderful for the environment.

A recent piece of research claimed that this was actually worse for the environment.

These types of vehicle use many exotic (for want of a better word) materials in its construction, particularly the electonics and battery. The carbon emissions and toxic waste or byproducts of manufacturing such a vehicle seemingly massively outweigh any gains by propelling it from A to B using hybrid or electric drive. Typically the vehicle is lugging round a large set of exotic batteries, with a limited lifecycle, which then have to be safely disposed of when the lifcycle expires. In addition while the hybrid unit still burns petrol, electricity used to charge a "pure" electric car comes from the supply grid which is majority supplied by fossil or nuclear, with a lower percentage of renewable e.g Hydro-electric.

Anyway, the research claimed that a Petrol engined V8 Jeep actually had a lower lifetime pollution cost than a Prius, as it was made of plain steel.

The simpler electronic car designs give other cause for worry as a TRL crash test on the G-WIZ electric car proved. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

What seems green is not always so.

[heebiejeebie]

I don't see how an electric car can help - I mean the electricity to recharge the batteries was probably produced from burning coal in the first place.

[pigletwillie]

I find it strange that the word "organic" when attached to food brings home images of quality, sustainable foods with a low impact on the environment but when you dig deeper it can mean anything but that.

Green to me now means, sustainability, seasonality and low miles whilst organic means almost the opposite unless British in origin. Then there are the issues of what is actually allowed to be sprayed on organic crops and does that make them any better than conventional ones with regards to chemicals and especially heavy metals such as copper?

[heebiejeebie]

I wonder how many people believe organic crops have not been sprayed with anything at all? "Organic" to me has the same connotations as "natural" or "healthy" i.e. meaningless labelling, designed to tap into a particular market.

I get an organic vegbox which costs no more than the supermarket and is advertised as locally produced seasonal veg as much as possible and no air freighted items. I'm actually a little relieved every time I find live bugs on the greens!

[Protea]

I wonder how many people believe organic crops have not been sprayed with anything at all? "Organic" to me has the same connotations as "natural" or "healthy" i.e. meaningless labelling, designed to tap into a particular market.

I get an organic vegbox which costs no more than the supermarket and is advertised as locally produced seasonal veg as much as possible and no air freighted items. I'm actually a little relieved every time I find live bugs on the greens!

You've hit the nail on the head heebiejeebie, i *think* most organic buyers believe that their organic veg & fruit HASN'T been sprayed with anything - when in reality this is completely untrue.

What i will say though is that the very small producers who often supply just through box schemes, tend to be more of the 'sandal brigade' as we call them and DO produce stuff as 'organically' as possible - i.e. not spraying, improving the ground, and generally doing all the things that ARE possible if you farm on a small scale, and your customers don't care if they find a aphid on their strawberry.

The organic suppliers to the big supermarkets are the same growers who supply the conventional produce - they just have a seperate section/site for organics. They have to produce on a massive scale to keep the supermarkets stocked, and are under contract to do so. In addition (and this i think is the salient point) the majority of CUSTOMERS want their organic produce to look EXACTLY THE SAME as the conventional produce, i.e. no pests, no bruises, no signs of disease, perfectly shaped etc. etc...how exactly is this to be achieved without a conventional approach to crop protection (albeit with different , organically approved products)??

The organic buying public has got to wake up and realise that if they want 'organic' produce that hasn't been sprayed, tinkered with, or whatever - they've got to stop expecting it to look perfect - the odd aphid on a lettuce IS NOT GOING TO KILL YOU!!

Unfortunatley, while most GYO's are pretty clued up that non-perfect veg tastes great - the vast majority of the British population aren't so we're going to be stuck with organic veg that is clearly mis-understood by most people

[TEB]

I agree with most everything you say except I am not sure it is us peeps that wanted super model looks in our veg, I would have thought it is more beneficial to the farmer and the supermarkets to have uniformi veg - makes it easir to harvest, pack etc and once such change is implemented then because the way we now lead our lives we toe the line because for a lot of people there isnt any perceived alternative to a supermarket shop.

[Protea]

Hmm, perhaps TEB, but i doubt that the supermarkets would change their minds now and allow us to be able to buy miss-shapen fruit for example - and i bet their wastage would go through the roof!

I guess its something we'll just have to accept - but i really do think people should be more informed about exactly what 'organic' means

[Alison]

One of the supermarkets started selling slightly mis-shapened fruit but they were only marketing them for jamming or cooking or something despite the fact there was nothing wrong with them for normal eating!

[TEB]

Hmm, perhaps TEB, but i doubt that the supermarkets would change their minds now and allow us to be able to buy miss-shapen fruit for example - and i bet their wastage would go through the roof!

I guess its something we'll just have to accept - but i really do think people should be more informed about exactly what 'organic' means

Agree totally with you first statement - it isnt going to happen, with your second statement - well its starting to look like its definately not PC to knock Organic - I just looked over the Friends of the Earth site as well as WWF UK and Organic Farmers UK and its all rosy in their gardens err fields

[Earthbabe]

One of the supermarkets started selling slightly mis-shapened fruit but they were only marketing them for jamming or cooking or something despite the fact there was nothing wrong with them for normal eating!

You are right Alison - it was Waitrose.

I did hear a few people say, when this happened, something along the lines of - well does it matter if it is misshapen, I'll just buy the cheaper stuff and eat that!! I think one of them was a local radio presenter.

[noidea]

All the big supermarkets do a similar thing with the mishapen veg etc, and get them at a much much lower rates from the farmers. It's usually labelled as value etc and there is nothing wrong with it other than they don't fit size wise. The farmers have gauges (obviously not that simple! but you know what i mean) that various fruit/veg are meant to fit into and if they don't they are rejected.

The whole debate is so complicated and I know of several people who pride themselves on being green etc that are also concerned about the recent trend towards buying only local produce. It may produce less airmiles but then we have the issue of providing other sustainable businesses for the countries that would not be able to export their produce. Our trends can affect these places in an awful way right down to you're average bod being able to feed their family.

I have no set opinion on any of it... it's all so complicated.

C

[willowstar]

I'm kind of with you noidea. it is an ethical nightmare. I like the idea of buying local but then I think of the people in far flung places who now rely on our market to provide for them, their families and their communities and then i really really don't know what the right thing is to do. Another thing...I am trying to boost my fruit consumption because I hardly eat any. The only thing I could buy in Waitrose last night that came from britain was rhubarb. so I bought it, but I didn't buy any apples which I really wanted because I couldn't buy British, most came from New Zealand - what is the right thing to do??????

[Flummery]

The problem with cash crops from the far flung places is that people there are not growing their own staple food any more. They are growing fine beans and mini-corn for us, in exchange for money. Corruption makes me wonder how much the labourers get. They'd do better to grow food for their own families.

[noidea]

Exactly Flummery. It's a huge problem that all goes so much further than us choosing local, organic from far flung places, eating in season etc.

It's a minefield trying to choose the right thing and it's something I never quite get to grips with even though it's something I am incredibly interested in career wise too.

C

[moggssue]

Oh dear, now I feel guilty whatever I chose to buy! It's all so complicated, trying to do the right thing. I'll carry on buying local as much as I can and not follow the organic 'fad' (if I can use that word without offending?). I do agree with Flummery and to a point can't the same be said of the UK as well - if we dont buy local aren't we putting our own suppliers at risk? Like the rest of you good folk on here I'm trying to feed my own family myself and think the planet would be better if more people did the same (tho I do realise it isnt possible for all, or to grow enough yourself).