What if Scotland Votes Yes?

[Martin H]

I didn't mean to sound condescending, but the fact is that it would plunge both Scotland and England into a freefall rescession, which would make the last few years seem like a walk in the park.

I'm not convinced by this causation, skeggijon. However one thing I am certain of is that when the next recession hits the Scotland vote will get the blame, whichever way it went and regardless of the underlying causes (I'm assuming these will be government overspending and subsequent money printing catching up with us).

It will make a change from blaming the recession on the activities of the previous government (instead of their own) or the bankers (instead of their own interference).

You'll have noticed that I don't have a lot of faith in politicians; any benefit they provide for us seems to be incidental to the benefits they provide to themselves.

Oh dear, it's only 9:30 and I seem to be off on one already! I think I'll go through my seeds now and see if there's anything I can sow, that'll help.

[gardening_gal]

I didn't mean to sound condescending, but the fact is that it would plunge both Scotland and England into a freefall rescession, which would make the last few years seem like a walk in the park.

And I think that point is where some people have difficulty. We have supposed independent experts directly contradicting each other on this very matter. If they can't agree, what hope has the average person got of making the right decision? I'm not convinced of this outcome, I've listened to many business owners both locally and nationally and also economists and there are as many disputing this are there as upholding this belief.

It's such a shame not one politician in either camp was able to stand up and say: 'actually there will be benefits as well as drawbacks in both outcomes' In our opinion these are what they will be.......

Nothing in life is ever 100% 'right', there are clear pluses and minuses but the Yes camp ignore or gloss over the minuses and the No camp ignore or gloss over the pluses. It make it hard to respect them and have faith in their words. I personally would trust more, whoever offered a more balanced opinion. But then politics is never balanced, is it?

Anyway, apologies, I hope I haven't commandeered the thread too much, my intention was just good natured discussion.

[gardening_gal]

You'll have noticed that I don't have a lot of faith in politicians; any benefit they provide for us seems to be incidental to the benefits they provide to themselves.

I wish I could thank you more than once for this. I do so agree with you.

[Bill HH]

I wonder if we would see mountains of duty free stuff being tossed over hadrians wall. The whole concept of an independant Scotland seems completely unworkable to me. Visions of hundreds of kilted men hiding under lorries to cross the border, they just better wear underpants, those roads can be very abrasive,

[bearded bloke]

Just had an upsetting phone call from my daughter. Hassled at work, in restaurants, supermarkets and even the bus stop by being told she should go home! She is British for gawds sake, living and working in the southern part of the country...what the hecks going on?

This ^^ saddens me enormously, I would like to apologise on behalf of all the rational southerners

I wish you all a good day no matter what your stance is on Independence and I hope we as a nation can find a way to work together in a fair and balanced way, whether we're still joined or not.

Well said GG At the end of the day we will still be nieghbours, whether national or international.

[skeggijon]

I love a bit of lively debate and respect everyones right to an opinion - I certainly don't think I'm anything but an interested spectator in this and in many ways see the yes or no choice an idealogical rather than political decision.
I would be sorry to see Scotland leave the Union because I think both Scotland and the Union are stronger together, but also support the right to choose.

[bearded bloke]

I wonder if we would see mountains of duty free stuff being tossed over hadrians wall. The whole concept of an independant Scotland seems completely unworkable to me. Visions of hundreds of kilted men hiding under lorries to cross the border, they just better wear underpants, those roads can be very abrasive,

chuckles NUTTER

[Jay22]

Thanks BB although you do not have to apologise! These kind of people are everywhere and in all walks of life...best just to ignore them IMO.

You never know Bill it could be the other way about with thousands of you sassenachs coming the other way!

[Alison]

They may be right in feeling things wouldn't be good, I really don't know, but surely there's something very wrong in kneejerking in such a quick and final way.

But that's the thing, both sides are stating that things will be at the extremes, neither of them categorically know that if it's a yes vote then it will be that bad or that good and I would suspect it would be neither. As you say, there is something very wrong in kneejerking in such a quick and final way to the negative but it is equally as wrong to say the same for a positive result.

[Kristen]

Iceland applied and they are not accepted, the EU has some strong rules that also have to be met.

I don't think that is correct. EU has been very happy for Iceland to join (particularly given that Iceland have a cosy relationship with EU so most criteria already satisfied), Iceland has been in turmoil about whether they actually want to join, delaying their decision, saying they need a referendum to decide (fair enough), then a different party being voted into government which then dropped the whole thing.

The only negative, from the EU, was Britain (and maybe some others) saying that if Iceland joined the EU we would like back the money that we lost in their banks. I don't think we had any objections, had we? Just a "You can't have your cake and eat it" stance.

OTOH the Icelandics have been uncomfortable with fishing rights and all sorts in their negotiations to join (I've got no problem with that either, their gains have probably always been marginal, compared to a former Eastern-block country, for example).

I think Iceland and Norway have ideal relationships with the EU and if we were to vote to leave the EU I suspect we would be able to enter a similar agreement and that it would suit us very well. We would have no say in the formation of EU policy (as per Iceland and Norway now) but we would pick and choose which aspects of EU policy we adopted (as per Iceland and Norway now ) [there are some aspects that those countries are required to adopt, but from memory they are neither onerous not contentious]

Bet they stop paying the BBC as well, I cannot see how anything could be done to anyone in Scotland not paying what is an English companys fee. So are the transmitters switched off.

So what of BBC Scotland then? Dunno if that is solely produced in Scotland, or in England/etc. for the benefits of the Scots? Just so long as I can still get Beechgrove I'll be happy ...

I wonder if most?? people get Beeb / BBC Scotlan via Sky or Cable? in which case their subscription covers a payment to Beeb (albeit that many think that Sky/Murdoch is riding on the back of having BBC on Sky and should pay more than he does ...)

And Kristen, I'm honestly not one to take offence easily but your comment about rioting seems a tad unfair given that most Scottish people are good and decent and are perfectly capable of accepting a majority vote.

You tar me with the brush of reading into my comments that I am implying that the Scots are a warring nation; that is not what I said, I was referring to the dangers of a close outcome. It matters not which country it were to happens in, I think a close-call would result in a tinder-box

Why would you think there would be rioting in the streets Kristen?

Democracy doesn't work well when one side wins by a small margin, as close-on half the people feel aggrieved.

If NO win by a small margin all the YES people currently intimidating NO voters may well say "The outcome is all your fault", and my fear is that some would then take matters into their own hands.

If the NO voters win and take to the streets to celebrate, which would surely not be a big surprise? then I think it highly likely that enough YES voters will be sufficiently annoyed to cause a rumpus. I shall be very happy indeed if that is not the case, and I feel very strongly that a 60:40 or 40:60 vote would be far better, for democracy and for due-process.

[teakdesk]

Nice post Kirsten!

As far as I understand it, in VERY simple terms, the original Union was formed because the English feared the Scots would align with another nation against them; the Scots were suffering in a very poor country and united to get the economic benefit that England offered. Large swathes of both sides hated each other and the support was only about 50:50 for Union at best.

Seems not much has changed now! Despite the union being responsible for making Great Britain into the economic and military powerhouse it is today, large swatches of both sides still distrust each other and support for the union is still only 50:50. A massive condemnation of the politicians in BOTH countries.

If today's vote is to divide then, as in the original decision to unite, all that happens is negotiations begin between the two sides. There is NO guarantee what will be demanded by Scotland or England nor what will be conceded. Indeed it is possible the SNP will not be the majority party after their next election and Salmond may not even be included in the negotiations.

So no one knows what Scotland or England will be like in 18 months time.

But it seems likely to me that the English fears that Scotland will align with another country to England's detriment will indeed come true; whether they align with Nordic countries or others no one knows.

It also seems to me that on separation Scotland's economy will go into to decline back to the state it was pre-union.

The loss of a large block of socialist seats in Westminster after separation will change the political landscape in Britain for decades.

[Aberdeenplotter]

I'm voting after tea time but was just sent this
An Independent Scotland? - YouTube

[Strawberry patch]

Ive already voted today...Its just a wait and see now guys

[FROSTYFRECKLE]

Another thread that has not descended into bickering - thank you

The first time I heard about riots was this morning in Uni. A girl mentioned it and nobody could believe she had said it - most sane people cannot see why rioting will occur. The media does like to exaggerate (bit like politicians).

I am not a Nationalist. We will find out early tomorrow what the result is and I do think the only thing we have learnt is politicians are even more dishonest than we believed. Not one politician has had the backbone to stand up and say what they actually believe - it has been blah, blah, blah we are going to hell in a wheelbarrow if we vote Yes and we will be loved again by David Cameron if we vote No (honestly who told him it was a good idea to come up to Scotland? Huh?)

GG, I'll help you slap a few celebs and can we skelp a few politicians while we are at it?

[Greenleaves]

As serious a matter it is I had to chuckle on the way home on the train, someone had made a banner that read

" Bricklayers wanted, north of England, foundations laid in AD 122"
For more information contact Hadrian