New Plot - Clay Soil - Perennial Weed Advice

[vikkib]

Hello Grapes!

I have a new allotment in (not quite sunny) Hertfordshire.

The plot hasn't been worked (apart from one bed) for quite some time and was covered in brambles, docks, nettles, ground elder etc.

I'm planning on making raised beds out of scaffold boards, lining them with cardboard and then filling with manure but I suspect I need to dig out the roots of the nasty perennials first... is that correct?

The soil is pretty heavy clay and I've started digging out some of the roots but the soil is so sticky at the moment I'm wondering if I'd be better off waiting for it to dry out a bit.

In the meantime would it be best to cover the areas I plan to use as beds with breathable weed suppressant or will this slow down the drying out process by cutting down on the air getting to the soil?

[Chestnut]

Hi Vikki, and welcome to the vine.

I also have clay soil, and I try to keep off it when it’s as wet as this weekend as it’s prone to becoming compacted. I also don’t like getting soaked!

Try having a read of Charles Dowding’s website. He is a guru in the no dig world ;-)
https://www.charlesdowding.co.uk/start-here/

I hadn’t heard of no dig when I first started, and I would definitely say digging is easier when the ground is a bit drier, because the soil doesn’t stick to the spade as much. Now that I have tried both, I would definitely dig out big weeds like brambles and docks, before covering it over.

In terms of covering , I found that weeds still grew under and sometimes through the woven plastic membrane. I solved this by adding a couple of layers of cardboard under the plastic - which was largely broken down by the next season when I uncovered it.

[PepperMonster]

You need to dig brambles and big docks out or they will start growing back through the beds or out the edges but I've made raised beds without digging the others out and if you use cardboard or lots of newspaper under the mulch/compost they die.

[mrmauy]

Brambles don't need to be dug out too deeply, but you do need to find and remove the growing nub or they will keep coming back.

Docs unfortunately need to get as much of the root out as you can. You might find the ground workable depending on drainage at your plot, I managed to dig the potatoe bed over today without too much trouble even though my soil is clay based.

[SarrissUK]

Hi Vikki! Welcome to the vine

I'd dig out the biggest weeds, then cover with plenty of cardboard and then lots of well rotted manure on top, or cover with just black plastic until you're ready to cover with cardboard and manure, or dig it over.
Covering it will keep it from growing too powerful, and will be easier to deal with

[bikermike]

you are probably just over the county line from me. i'd say dig out the roots. also, rather than dig the soil, maybe put some drainage ditches round the edge to try to help de-sog your soil.

I'm going no-dig in general, but i think weeds with roots need digging out before you start as they will be really well-anchored in the soil.

[Derbydal]

hi Vikki wellcome to the vine even though youv'e been here for 10yrs lol it looks like you have a couple of fruit trees they may need a bit of prunnig , the twisted willow is in the wrong place in my mind but some use it in flower arangement ,if you intend to use for that you need to cut the thick stems down, a bit like copicing then thiner stems will grow from the stump. atb Dal.

[roitelet]

The best time to gig put docks is NOW while they are concentrating in growing upwards and don’t put out side roots. Do as Mrmauy says with the brambles.

[vikkib]

Thank you sooooooooooo much for all the advice, everyone; I'll crack on with trying to dig out the roots of the perennials!

you are probably just over the county line from me. i'd say dig out the roots. also, rather than dig the soil

This is exactly what I'd had in mind, thought I'd just 'spot dig' out the roots of the bigger beasts. It's just trickier than I expected as the soil is so sticky it clumps together and is really hard to break up, I end up making such a sticky mess I'm sure I'm re-covering some of the weeds I aimed to dig out! Hey-ho... I will persevere and just accept that I'll miss some and need to re-visit!

maybe put some drainage ditches round the edge to try to help de-sog your soil.

That's a really interesting suggestion, I shall have a read up and see how best to do it/where to put them. The clay dries out and goes rock hard in the summer but I'm hoping building raised beds and filling them with organic matter will help with that issue.

it looks like you have a couple of fruit trees they may need a bit of prunnig , the twisted willow is in the wrong place in my mind but some use it in flower arangement ,if you intend to use for that you need to cut the thick stems down, a bit like copicing then thiner stems will grow from the stump. atb Dal.

I didn't even know one of them was a twisted willow, let alone had any thoughts about using stems for flower arranging... is that the one on the right?

I think the tree on the left is a cherry (I may get rid of that) and a plot neighbour thinks the one in the middle is a pear... I've never had fruit trees before so will need to read up on pruning!

Edit - I've just looked back at my photos and I'm not sure you can see the third tree, on the right, behind the twisted wigwam thingy so I may have got my wires totally crossed (or twisted!)! Pic now below... is it possible that's a twisted willow or were you referring to the wigwam frame thing, Derbydal?

[Derbydal]

Thank you sooooooooooo much for all the advice, everyone; I'll crack on with trying to dig out the roots of the perennials!


This is exactly what I'd had in mind, thought I'd just 'spot dig' out the roots of the bigger beasts. It's just trickier than I expected as the soil is so sticky it clumps together and is really hard to break up, I end up making such a sticky mess I'm sure I'm re-covering some of the weeds I aimed to dig out! Hey-ho... I will persevere and just accept that I'll miss some and need to re-visit!


That's a really interesting suggestion, I shall have a read up and see how best to do it/where to put them. The clay dries out and goes rock hard in the summer but I'm hoping building raised beds and filling them with organic matter will help with that issue.



I didn't even know one of them was a twisted willow, let alone had any thoughts about using stems for flower arranging... is that the one on the right?

I think the tree on the left is a cherry (I may get rid of that) and a plot neighbour thinks the one in the middle is a pear... I've never had fruit trees before so will need to read up on pruning!

Edit - I've just looked back at my photos and I'm not sure you can see the third tree, on the right, behind the twisted wigwam thingy so I may have got my wires totally crossed (or twisted!)! Pic now below... is it possible that's a twisted willow or were you referring to the wigwam frame thing, Derbydal?

sorry Vikki I was as you say looking at the wigwam thingy with the tree in the back ground and thought it was growing out the middle of the bed ! atb Dal.

[veggiechicken]

Hi Vikki - welcome back
Congrats on your new allotment. That brick wall looks good as it may act as a heat store - unless its on the North side!!
Can't really help with the clay soil questions but I agree that you should be digging out all the perennials. Brambles are quite satisfying as they tend to tip root and, if its recent, you can pull them up roots and all. Failing that, cut down the brambles to knee height, so that you can see where the main stem is, then lever them out with a fork, rather then trying to dig them out.
Docks are a pain (I have lots). Dig them out if you can, but, definitely don't let them set seed or they'll be everywhere next year. Cut off the flowers as soon as you see them, then you can take your time about digging them out.
Have fun.

[TrixC]

I also have clay soil and have found that it’s best to try and dig deep rooted weeds like docks, dandelions etc out at this time of year when there’s moisture in the soil otherwise the soil dries out and anchors them in the ground. I’ve had a lot of success with the no dig method, using cardboard combined with mulches is great and kills most weeds if you persevere. Good luck!

[vikkib]

Hi Vikki - welcome back

Thank you VC!

Congrats on your new allotment. That brick wall looks good as it may act as a heat store - unless its on the North side!!
Can't really help with the clay soil questions but I agree that you should be digging out all the perennials. Brambles are quite satisfying as they tend to tip root and, if its recent, you can pull them up roots and all. Failing that, cut down the brambles to knee height, so that you can see where the main stem is, then lever them out with a fork, rather then trying to dig them out.
Docks are a pain (I have lots). Dig them out if you can, but, definitely don't let them set seed or they'll be everywhere next year. Cut off the flowers as soon as you see them, then you can take your time about digging them out.
Have fun.

Unfortunately the wall is North West (ish) facing and only gets the sun very briefly in the afternoon but it still provides a good bit of shelter.

I wish I'd thought of leaving the stems of the brambles a bit higher but I cut them almost right down, to be honest they were so thick in places my legs would have been torn to pieces had I not cut them down!

I also have clay soil and have found that it’s best to try and dig deep rooted weeds like docks, dandelions etc out at this time of year when there’s moisture in the soil otherwise the soil dries out and anchors them in the ground. I’ve had a lot of success with the no dig method, using cardboard combined with mulches is great and kills most weeds if you persevere. Good luck!

I've had a good run at it this week and since we've had a couple of days without rain (finally!) the ground is a bit better to work with. I have taken great satisfaction in digging/pulling out some dock roots around the 50cm / 20" mark! =O Monsters!

Still lots to do and I've got a busy weekend so unlikely to get down there much (most frustrating!). I've covered some areas with weed suppressant for now to try and keep them from drying out too much and turning rock solid.

[vikkib]

Longest dock root so far!

[veggiechicken]

Made me think of this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug