Planning

[WiZeR]

It's giving me a real headache, maybe I am trying to be too prepared.

Anyway, the best book on the subject seems to be Joy Larckom's. She has an example of a plot similar to mine which runs north to south. In her example she seems to place tall plants such as climbing tomatoes, courgettes and peas sporadically throughout the plan. Is it best to keep all tall plants at one end of the plot or do as Joy does and place them randomly.

My plot also runs north/south.

[sewer rat]

Planning

Hey WiZer
Happy new year !
I think all my gibbering to the OH paid off as Santa brought me Joy's book for Christmas !
I would recommend that you follow Joy's example and place your climbing / tall veggies at intervals throughout your plot. There are several advantages to having them spread out like this - not least is sunshine ! If you place them all in one area, they may end up shading each other out, whereas if spaced throughout the plot, sunshine will be available to them all.
In addition, they could be used to divide up the plot by acting as screens, or if grown up wigwams, they just make the place look more attractive. They will also attract beneficial insects to all areas of the plot is spaced throughout, and let's face it, the more help we can get from beneficial beasties , the better!
Am avidly reading Joy's book and it is an absolute belter - so glad that it was recommended by fellow grapes.
Have visited your site a couple of times and will continue to pop in for visits.
Cheers
Rat

[WiZeR]

Thanks very much SR. Seems to make sense. I am slowly but surely getting my plan together. Just got to prepare the ground now!

Thanks for your comments on the website. It's helping me keep in the right frame of mind.

[CityChick]

Which Joy Larkcom book is that? Sounds useful. I'm grappling with what to grow where and when on my allotment, so any ideas would help.

[WiZeR]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...940354-3363026

[Geordie]

Crop Rotation

This again can be a massive topic (compost heaps all over again!!) so this is my breif(ish) guide to try and simplify it. It will not answer all the technical questions but will hopefully provide you with a start in the right direction!

In simple terms, crop rotation is a system by which vegetables of a similar character do not follow one another on the same piece of ground year after year. Vegetables can be classified in all kinds of ways, the botanist will do so by means of natural orders; the chemist might do so by means of the manures they particularly desire; the gardener can do so by, say, their root systems - deep-rooting crops versus shallow-rooting crops; crops that tend to have the same type of manure. The biologist might put crops into groups according to the diseases and pests which attack them. So vegetables can be classified in various ways, and it is as well to look at any classification very broadly.

It would be unwise to attempt to lay down hard and fast rules as to the way that rotational cropping should be carried out. Likewise, no one could say that unless you carried out such a system your vegetable garden would be a failure or that using a system will automatically produce first rate yields.

Reasons for crop rotation

The two problems with growing the same (or similar) crops in the same area year on year, is that the nutrients in the soil become unbalanced and that pests and diseases which are attracted to the crop can increase in the soil.

By changing the position of the crops, the nutrients can remain balanced (as different groups of crops require different nutrients) in addition soil borne pests and diseases are reduced as they are not given the chance to build up year after year.

One point of using the particular groupings of crops, is that the treatment of the soil is very similar and over the period of the rotation, the condition of the soil is maintained by the use of the various soil preparation used.

Three year rotation

In this scheme the vegetable land is divided up into three areas for:

1. for root crops (carrots, parsnips, beetroot, salsify etc.)
2. for brassicas (cabbage, savoys, cauliflower, broccoli, sprouts, turnips)
3. for everything else (potatoes, celery, leeks etc.)

So plot 1 has root crops growing on it the first year, brassicas in the second year, and everything else growing on it the third year. The simple plan below shows the idea.

Year 1 - Plot 1 Roots, Plot 2 Brassicas, Plot 3 Else

Year 2 - Plot 1 Else, Plot 2 Roots, Plot 3 Brassicas

Year 3 - Plot 1 Brassicas, Plot 2 Else, Plot 3 Roots




First year planting:

root crops - carrots, parsnips, beetroot, salsify etc.

brassicas - cabbage, savoys, cauliflower, broccoli, sprouts, turnips

everything else - potatoes, celery, leeks, peas, beans etc.

Permanent Crops - Herbs Asparagus rhubarb etc.

In this way crops that need similar treatment and have the same kind of requirements have been grouped together. In addition deep rooting crops alternate with shallow rooting vegetables. As far as possible crop "families" are kept together. For this reason we put turnips in with the cabbage family, as they are closely related and get the same diseases and pests - notably club root.

A three-course rotation is simple to use, but it is not very easy to fit in all crops. Growers are apt to wonder where to put such things as celery and leeks, for instance, but these can be used as dividing lines between the areas if necessary - and so can runner beans or peas, if desired. In some ways, a four-course rotation has its advantages.

Four year rotation

Here the land is divided up into four areas, and the vegetables are divided into four groups.

1. Potatoes,
2. Pulses (i.e. the peas and beans), and in this group for convenience sake we can include our celery, leeks, onions, and shallots,
3. Root crops (i.e. carrots, parsnips, beetroot, and unusual vegetables like salsify, scorzonera),
4. Brassicas (i.e. Brussels sprouts, savoys, cauliflowers, turnips and swedes, kale, and kohlrabi) ; in this group may also be included spinach.

The crops left out are either the permanent crops that must have a place all to themselves, so that they are not disturbed, or plants like artichokes that grow very tall and so need growing at one end of the garden. Crops like parsley and chives, which make excellent edgings, and catch crops, like radish and lettuce, that can be grown almost anywhere, fitting in as they do where convenient.

Year 1 - Plot 1 root crops, Plot 2 brassicas, Plot 3 potatos, Plot 4 pulses

Year 2 - Plot 1 pulses, Plot 2 root crop, Plot 3 brassicas, Plot 4 potatos

Year 3 - Plot 1 potatos, Plot 2 pulses, Plot 3 root crops, Plot 4 brassicas

Year 4 - Plot 1 brassicas, Plot 2 potatos, Plot 3 pulses, Pot 4 root crops

First year planting
root crops - carrots, parsnips, beetroot, salsify etc.
brassicas - cabbage, savoys, cauliflower, broccoli, sprouts, turnips potatoes - potatoes, celery, leeks etc.
pulses - peas, beans, onions, shallots

Permanent Crops
Herbs Asparagus rhubarb etc.
Using the crop rotation system to its fullest advantage will help to rotate the systems of manuring and cultivation, and will save time and labour in the long run. Not only this, but many have found that crop rotation also save money.

Working out your crop rotation plan

• List all the vegetables you want to grow over a season, and the relative quantities of each. Remember to include green manures.
• Group crops together by family (see bottom of page). Some relationships may seem a little unlikely, but if you were to let all the plants flower, their family likeness would soon become clear.
• Draw a plan of the growing area. Divide it into equal sized sections according to the number of years you want the rotation to last - try 3 or 4 to start with.
  
  The first rule is to keep families together; if a section is to hold more than one family, try and keep those with similar growing requirements together. Using a bed system can make planning a rotation easier. You may also find it helpful to write crops on to pieces of those moveable sticky note pads. You can then play around until you find a combination that fits.
• Hungry crops, such as potatoes, should go on newly manured ground, while those that do not need high fertility, (such as the pea family), should follow on from them. Only apply manure to the area for the potatoes each year.
• Root vegetables do not like soil too freshly disturbed, so they should not follow potatoes.
• Peas and beans like freshly limed ground, but potatoes hate it. Potatoes are likely to be scabby if lime has been recently applied. So lime the soil after potatoes to grow peas, and do not grow potatoes immediately after peas.
• Grow related crops together. Members of the cabbage family need netting against pests and diseases, so plant them close to one another.
• Green vegetables that require regular watering are best kept together and away from root crops that need less.

Vegetable families

Beetroot family
Beetroot
Quinoa
Spinach
Swiss Chard
Spinach Beet

Potato family
Aubergine
Pepper
Potato
Tomato

Carrot family
Carrot
Celeriac
Celery
Fennel
Parsley
Parsnip

Onion family
Garlic
Leek
Onion
Shallot

Miscellaneous
Corn
Lambs Lettuce
Miners Lettuce
New Zealand Spinach
Purslane
Phacelia
Grazing Rye
Buckwheat

Marrow family
Cucumber
Courgette
Marrow
Melon
Pumpkin
Squash

Pea and Bean family
Alfalfa
Broad Bean
French Bean
Runner Bean
Clover
Fenugreek
Lupin
Pea
Tares
Trefoil

Daisy family
Chicory/Endive
Jerusalem Artichoke
Lettuce
Salsify
Scorzonera

Brassica family
Broccoli
Brussel Sprouts
Cabbage
Calabrese
Cauliflower
Kale
Kohlrabi
Mustard
Oriental Brassicas
Radish
Swede
Turnip



Happy planning!

[Jaxom]

Geordie. You are a star. Once again you have come up trumps with information that is needed by all. You have written what needs to be done in an easy and clear way. I think that a number of your posts should be collected together and pinned in a new section Called "Basic information and advice". I think that it would be best for it to be information only rather than for multi posting. Perhaps if other "Grapes" post information in other threads that is complimentary then these could be copied and placed in the same section. In this way a good library of data could be set-aside for new and old alike. I am sure that in a year’s time the same questions about Crop rotation and composting will be asked. If we as a group could direct people to the information with the phrase "Look in Basic Information Library" I think it would go a long way to making this forum stand out for sheer quality of information.
What do other grapes think?
Jax

[Nicos]

Excellent idea. I had thought of printing off info and putting it in a scrap book! I have only recently become a member after seeing the site on a flyer from GYO and have spent many hours reading through the threads. All very interesting and so much to learn from other people's experiences. I should think that in 2 years time it would take months to read through all the messages so the idea of pulling similar threads together would be very useful. Who actually set up this site and when? Brilliant idea. Well done!

[WiZeR]

Maybe Geordie should have his own site!

[Clarea1]

or write a book and invest the profits in more GYO and alltmenting!

[Geordie]

Website

Suggestions please about how to get a domain name....free would be good!

[WiZeR]

Have you any web design experience Geordie?

You should have some free webspace with your ISP. Or if you want your own domain name then, personaly, I think it is worth paying for a proper hosting account. I use an american company called TronicTech $5.95 (£3.30) per month for a full domain hosting account with all the features and disk space you could possibly need. Free accounts seem to be full of advertising banners and restrictions which at the end of the day make it harder for the webmaster AND harder for the webuser. To register your domain I would go with 123Reg Just £6.10 to register your own domain name for 2yrs and their domain mangement system is the best I have seen.

With this kind of account you can have the same sort of website as myself or Wild Burro , using the really useful and free WordPress software. Once setup this software makes it a doddle to publish articles, update and manipulate your site. It takes all the work out.

If this is all a bit much then you could go with the free blogging sites like Lottie's or even the WordPress equivalent.

If you need any help or advice, feel free to ask.

[Geordie]

Web Design

My web design skills is, I think adequate, I have a reasonable knowledge of html and use Evrsoft as a wysiwyg page designer, with Photoshop for the images.

I am not sure I could justify the time to keep it regularly updated, and hence justify the cost, but would prefer a website rather than a journal, which i find tend to be a bit diary like, rather than informative......sorry to all you journal keepers...its just my opinion!

I understand that you dont get something for nothing, hence adverts on free hosting sites or the inconvenient and awfull address from your ISP.

Thanks for advice....I will consider.

[WiZeR]

There are things called CMS's. CMS stands for Content Management System

This basically looks after your site for you and all you have to do it login as an administrator and publish new articles. These look and feel more like webpages than blogs/journals.

Try xoops, post nuke or mambo

[JennieAtkinson]

I suggested after the "compost bible" that Geordie's advice should have its own place on the website. I have been sticking them in my garden scrapbook.
Thanks Geordie, I have been struggling with three plots for rotatation, when all the books I have rotate four plots.
Can you, or anyone, advise when you would manure each plot in the rotation. I have drawn up a plan for my three beds and have hopefully worked out when to add serious manure (farmyard) and when just to add compost. Is that right? Grateful for your advice.