The plot next door seems to be turning into a creche....?!

[Alice]

I think I'm with T Peers here. As long as the rent is paid and the space is utilised who says can you can only grow "turnips". Mant people live in flats with children and have no private outdoor space. If they want to pay the rent for a lottie to have an outdoor space to take their children to, where they can plant a few flowers and grow what's interesting for them, I say more power to their elbow. The lotties are not just for the good old boys. They are highly subsidised by council tax payers (if you don't think so then just buy a bit of ground and see what it costs) and are for the benefit of the community. That includes women who want to grow flowers with their children. Sorry folks. Off my high horse now.

[Peter]

I think I'm with T Peers here. As long as the rent is paid and the space is utilised who says can you can only grow "turnips". Mant people live in flats with children and have no private outdoor space. If they want to pay the rent for a lottie to have an outdoor space to take their children to, where they can plant a few flowers and grow what's interesting for them, I say more power to their elbow. The lotties are not just for the good old boys. They are highly subsidised by council tax payers (if you don't think so then just buy a bit of ground and see what it costs) and are for the benefit of the community. That includes women who want to grow flowers with their children. Sorry folks. Off my high horse now.

On mine now!

An allotment by definition is for growing veg, a leisure garden on the other hand can be just a lawn and shed with table & chairs.

With every right is a responsibilty.

If you(general not specific) take your kids down the allotment you make damm sure they keep to your plot and do not annoy other tenants.

Happily we border a public park with a play area, visible from most of the site, so kids are WELL catered for.

Our landlord has a clause in our agreements about "not causing a nuiscance to other plotholders or site neighbours".

I would class a radio blaring away as a nuiscance, nowt wrong with a diddy one with an earphone or headset!

I would also deffo class a childminder and five charges as a nuiscance if it was a regular, long visit time, long term thing. There is a difference between going to water or pick something as a kiddie experience or adventure and using a plot as a substitute for a proper creche.

One other serious though occurs to me, does this person walk all five charges to the site, or put them in a car?

If a car how many correctly fitted child seats does it have?

[Snadger]

On mine now!

An allotment by definition is for growing veg, a leisure garden on the other hand can be just a lawn and shed with table & chairs.

Have to disagree with you on this one Peter! Your quote above is what used to be percieved as what an allotment was for!

I believe that in this more enlightened age allotments are used more and more as liesure gardens by people who maybe have no garden of there own or just want a bit of piece and quiet.
To give an instance, our enamoured guru Nick has just taken over another allotment to grow chrysanths etc....rightly so!
Will he be wrong to sit at his table and chairs with his cup of tea and gaze out over his sea of flowers?
Each person's perception of what an allotment should be is different and as long as it's kept tidy and it's occupants don't cause a nuisance, good luck to them!

[Earthbabe]

I think it depends on what your lease says really Snadger. Mine says "mainly for growing fruit and veg for personal consumption" which allows for a small leisure area/flowers for cutting etc. However the allotment officer seems to turn a blind eye to the rows of lemon balm, marestail and other things that one tenant grows to sell (or so I'm told). Many of the plots on our site have been uncultivated for so long I think they are just happy they are being used.

[Shortie]

Also there has to be a certain number of helpers: brats (it used to be about 1 to every 6kids when I helped out as a cub leader)

Good reminder Nick.... SaraWix, check the site rules... there may be a maximum number of people per plot specified. I know we're allowed only 5 people on the plots on our site. It may be the same on yours and you could maybe stress that to the commitee as a lever...?

[nick the grief]

.....To give an instance, our enamoured guru Nick has just taken over another allotment to grow chrysanths etc....rightly so!
Will he be wrong to sit at his table and chairs with his cup of tea and gaze out over his sea of flowers?...

Ahh but i'm the secretary so I can do what I like

I think that the rules of our lease (it's a private site) say something along the lines of

".... to enable the people of Hartshill to grow Fruit & Vegetables for their own consumption"

I can't remember if it mentions flowers or not but as over half my new plot will be half Veg & fruit (if you coun't the polytunnel as veg) I guess I can just about get away with it. We have had people in the past who did use them as a garden as they lived in a flat with no garden and they did have a patio, flowers & a lawn. I guess now that it is getting popular again we ( allotment committee's) can afford to be choosy who we allow onto the site as most places have a waiting list. but about 4 years ago we were just glad for people to want a plot - Thats how piglet has come to have so many I guess.

[SarzWix]

Our agreement has a clause about the % allowed to be used for grass/flowers, so they can't really be used as 'leisure gardens' as such.
Personally, I have no problem if that's what they want to do. However in this case, they are bringing the kids to an overgrown plot, with not much to keep them occupied and I know for a fact that the soil is full of broken glass (mine is and they were one large plot til early this year), and trying to do digging/clearing, with 5 toddlers whingeing away in the background, and a very loud radio playing. (The childminder is only in charge of 3 of the toddlers, the other 2 are the plotholders children, and they were all on foot or in double buggies.)

The lotties are not just for the good old boys. They are highly subsidised by council tax payers (if you don't think so then just buy a bit of ground and see what it costs) and are for the benefit of the community. That includes women who want to grow flowers with their children.

As I am also a council-tax payer, I am therefore subsidising them to cause a nuisance to other council-tax payers?!
Funnily enough, since it's been raining stair-rods, it's been all quiet & peaceful down there...!

[Snadger]

I think it depends on what your lease says really Snadger. Mine says "mainly for growing fruit and veg for personal consumption" which allows for a small leisure area/flowers for cutting etc. However the allotment officer seems to turn a blind eye to the rows of lemon balm, marestail and other things that one tenant grows to sell (or so I'm told). Many of the plots on our site have been uncultivated for so long I think they are just happy they are being used.

Who dictates what the lease allows...ie the council/owner or the allotment committee? If it's the latter, and with permission of the owner, the lease should surely be relevant to the needs of the community!

[SarzWix]

I think this is all drifting away from the point, a bit. There aren't many people round here that live in flats with no garden (except sheltered housing), or have no access to green spaces - we are slap in the middle of one the greenest parts of England, so that really isn't part of the issue! The people in the plot next door, who wound me up so much the other day, have a garden (which is a good bit bigger than mine) already growing flowers and some veg, lawn and a greenhouse. Like I said, I have no problem with people using their allotment as a garden if that's all they've got. The problem is in this particular plot being used as a creche, and people having no sensitivity towards others (which is a problem not restricted to allotments).
And incidentally, our plots cost the council-tax payer next to nothing - the land was 'bequeathed' to the parish for the purpose of allotments, and the council invests nothing in them - no fencing, no lighting, no water, no paths...Nada

[Snadger]

I think this is all drifting away from the point, a bit. There aren't many people round here that live in flats with no garden (except sheltered housing), or have no access to green spaces - we are slap in the middle of one the greenest parts of England, so that really isn't part of the issue! The people in the plot next door, who wound me up so much the other day, have a garden (which is a good bit bigger than mine) already growing flowers and some veg, lawn and a greenhouse. Like I said, I have no problem with people using their allotment as a garden if that's all they've got. The problem is in this particular plot being used as a creche, and people having no sensitivity towards others (which is a problem not restricted to allotments).
And incidentally, our plots cost the council-tax payer next to nothing - the land was 'bequeathed' to the parish for the purpose of allotments, and the council invests nothing in them - no fencing, no lighting, no water, no paths...Nada

If you are serious about the plot being used as a creche though SarzWix surely this would be an everyday, or at least every weekday event? If that was the case and not just a case of bringing the kids out into the sunshine and fresh air for an odd hour or two now and again, you have a damm good right to be annoyed!!

[TPeers]

I agree there is an issue to be addressed here, should an allotment, untended, weed infested and potentially full of glass and with an unknown amount of pesticides/poisons be used as a 'playground' for the under fives.

Well as a Mum - no of course not!

I don't use child minders, but I have friends that do and if I thought that their child was being taken into such a situation either with or without that parents permission I would not keep quiet!

There is a saftey issue here, it is all very well for a parent to bring its own child, aware of the risks and accepting them but not for a childminder to bring someone elses offspring!

What sort of medical and liability insurance is included in your rent?

If there is no insurance then it is a matter of importance to keep these children off site. Should one of them be harmed, the holders as a group, could be sued!

Take this up with the committee, there are over 75 thousand garden related accidents every year - you don't want one of these children to be among their number.

Terry

[SarzWix]

I was given to understand, by the 2 women, that this was to be a 'regular' thing, that it would be good for the children to see things being planted and growing. And the 2 teenagers are supposed to be working there more often, to do the heavier work. So, I guess only time will tell how often 'regular' is.

[Peter]

Have to disagree with you on this one Peter! Your quote above is what used to be percieved as what an allotment was for!

I believe that in this more enlightened age allotments are used more and more as liesure gardens by people who maybe have no garden of there own or just want a bit of piece and quiet.
To give an instance, our enamoured guru Nick has just taken over another allotment to grow chrysanths etc....rightly so!
Will he be wrong to sit at his table and chairs with his cup of tea and gaze out over his sea of flowers?
Each person's perception of what an allotment should be is different and as long as it's kept tidy and it's occupants don't cause a nuisance, good luck to them!

No, it is the LEGAL and Parliamentary Law definition.

[Snadger]

No, it is the LEGAL and Parliamentary Law definition.

Interesting site time!

http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/NR/.../allotment.pdf

[Peter]

Snadger, up for url tennis/

Your referred website is the "personal" view of Cambridgeshire County Council presumably), which does not allocate, own or run allotments as they are normally a Town or Parish Council function. See http://search.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/...870&provider=1 County Councils often have these flights of fancy about ways of improving communities, it seems to be a touchy-feely function of their planning policy departments.

I prefer to cite the govenment department responsible in law for allotments, or at any rate the acts of parliament that established allotments and also responsible for the approval or promotion of any future Westminster legislation relating to allotments.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1127687

That is the UK government view.

I will defer a MAJOR point to you VERY willingly, any Landlord can vary the terms and conditions that it applies to allotments that it rents out, thus your or my allotment site could quite legitimately allow a lawn, shed, and chairs. But I bet the rules would have to cater for "ASBO" behavior much as they should on a traditional site cater for "failure to cultivate".

For those who like it in plain I quote the website;

"What is an allotment?

An allotment plot is a piece of land, usually about 250 square metres in size, which can be rented for growing fruit and vegetables. The land is generally owned by the local council.
There are three key groups involved in the day to day running of allotments. They are:

• local authorities;
• allotment societies; and
• individual plot holders themselves."