Cause for concern - glyphosate

[Jay-ell]

By the way Forage420, ho many plants can you put down to 100% certain they were killed by weedkiller overspray from your neighbours, rather than the heat, thirst, disease, etc?

[bario1]

If it were me, I'd just look into moving to a new plot. Everyone has the right to garden any way they wish to within the law and the committee rules. I wouldn't dream of approaching my neighbours unless they were clearly flaunting the rules, and I wouldn't appreciate my neighbours asking me to change the way i grow stuff. Ask around and see if there are other plots on your site where most people have a similar approach to yours, and if so, ask to be transferred to one of these plots when it becomes available? Failing that, is there an organic site near you that you could put your name down for?

[Cadalot]

I use weed killer when I have too mainly on the new plot around the edges and where its growing around the weed membrane I have put down to keep the weed at bay. I use it on bind weed after growing it up some sticks and I now favour the dab on gel sticks. If I can't keep on top of weeds the I will do the rounds but mainly on the paths and around the outside of the beds.

I grow through sheets of weed membrane to reduce the amount of soil that can support weeds. The plot next door was a constant source or weed seed as it was not maintained, I put my name down for the plot and when it became free I got it and now I can manage the weed problem my easier as I'm fighting myself and not another plot holder. I am luck because I have walls on two sides and now paths on the other two that we manage to keep weed free.

[DannyK]

Despite moderators posting nobody has mentioned moderation! Calling people lazy and ignorant is going to raise a few hackles. A far more conciliatory approach is needed.

Before you communicate, even orally, I would suggest you draft things in long hand, leave them for a while and then reread carefully. Look at the trouble a lot of idiot politicians have got into on Twitter!

I favour bario1's approach.

Having lived and worked all over London, some of it in very rough areas, for the last 39 years I've never had any problems. I think potential muggers are reduced to tears when they see my Timex and old Blackberry!

[Jay-ell]

I use weed killer when I have too mainly on the new plot around the edges and where its growing around the weed membrane I have put down to keep the weed at bay. I use it on bind weed after growing it up some sticks and I now favour the dab on gel sticks. If I can't keep on top of weeds the I will do the rounds but mainly on the paths and around the outside of the beds.

I grow through sheets of weed membrane to reduce the amount of soil that can support weeds. The plot next door was a constant source or weed seed as it was not maintained, I put my name down for the plot and when it became free I got it and now I can manage the weed problem my easier as I'm fighting myself and not another plot holder. I am luck because I have walls on two sides and now paths on the other two that we manage to keep weed free.

Same reason I put my name down for the New Territories - the weeds. I also spray stuff when it gets out of hand but the plots are getting under control by smothering everything with newspaper and grass cuttings or hedge trimmings. I do, however, reserve my right to use my judgement on to spray or not to spray.

I think the contract on the first allotment plot I had (in East London) included something along the lines of "to allow the occupant unhindered use of the land for legal cultivation" and use of weedkillers is still legal - any attempt on that site to stop use of weedkiller would require a complete renegotiation of the contracts with all the tenants (which were open ended so there were a dozen variations depending on when people got their plots)

[bikermike]

the other plot holder is only entitled to cultivate their plot lawfully etc. If they let stuff drift onto someone else's plot they are no longer just on their plot.

That to me is the test - the OP has the right to cultivate their plot lawfully as they see fit too - including not using weedkiller or having it used on their plot without their agreement.

[keat63]

May I add my own take on this without anyone taking offence.

This year is our first year of allotment owning, our plot had been left to go ferral for a few years, and was very over grown.

For us, the only viable option was weed killer, or spend a whole year trying to clean it up.
Now that we have crops, I will only use the stuff on paths, anything in beds is hand weeded on bended knee.

Come springtime, I will be tackling an area suffering with Mares Tail, and this will be via a chemical attack.

There's a plot opposite me that quite clearly hasn't been touched, definately not this year, and by the looks of it last year either.
It's rammed full of docs, all 4 feet high, most of which are now in seed.

Is it fair therefor that I should suffer the consequences of this neglected plot, or should I have dosed it with Gyphosate my self in the spring ??

[Jay-ell]

When I re-read the OPs post he doesn't actually say that there's drift onto his plot

and it's become increasingly apparent (through conversations and observations) that through sheer laziness and ignorance, people around my site (one two plots away, and one right next to me), are routinely spraying this stuff onto their plot, to avoid having to use more labour intensive methods.

Thirdly, if I am unhappy about other people using this stuff around me, what choice do I have, other than to leave the site?

just the rant about others using it, hence the question above about how many plants have been lost to weed killer overspray.

[DannyK]

Maybe this will lighten things up a bit!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6BJJe9JV_A://

[rary]

Having lived and worked all over London, some of it in very rough areas, for the last 39 years I've never had any problems. I think potential muggers are reduced to tears when they see my Timex and old Blackberry!

And whats wrong with a Timex, the best watch I have ever picked up
and I take it you have never lived up this way if you think London has rough areas

[purplekat]

I've had my plot for 3.5years now, my next door neighbour weeds by rotavating his plot multiple times a year and appears to occasionally spray with weedkiller which I hate, but it is not my place to tell him how to grow as long as it doesn't drift onto mine. His plot is really weedy and plants just don't grow very well. I have quietly got on with my plot, growing mostly the no-dig way by laying cardboard on the beds and topdressing with compost and manure every year.

This year, for the first time he seems to be trying something new, he's got some massive tarps from somewhere and is covering his plot to kill off the weeds, rather than rotavating/chemicals. And he actually came over and asked my advice about something (he's been there longer than me). I'd like to think the results I've had on my plot speak for themselves, my plants certainly seem to have held up to the drought better than others.

With most people, you're unlikely to change their minds by trying to, it makes people defensive and they don't listen. You just have to get on with yours and let the results speak for themselves. If you can stick it out for a few years and grow healthier looking plants (especially if it takes less time/effort), you'll likely have people wandering past looking for tips Slow and steady wins long term

[Forage420]

Hi everyone,

I'm going to respond here as one block to the comments because there are many from people and I don't want to post-quote individually.

Firstly, yes I agree that to push people into feeling bad about using this stuff will likely make them more likely to use it, or make them take a dislike to me. Some people don't like being told what to do, in fact I notice it's quite a trend on allotment sites where people just hate obeying the rules - if they banned the stuff there would always be someone that doesn't like it and will go against the grain, but then again those that do not comply can easily be removed from site.

I am quite disappointed in the majority of replies in the thread taking a live or let live attitude to this poison. A man just this month successfully won a lawsuit against Monsanto in the US for it causing his cancer : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45152546.

In light of this recent news and the fact that glyphosate has been banned in some countries, I really do question the intelligence of some of the people that continue to use this bottled cancer. And forgive me for getting exasperated. Why is it still legal in this country? I'd say it likely has something to do with Monsanto lobbying the government to keep it on the shelves, and the kick backs they get.

As for my experience as an allotmenteer : I've been gardening since 2006 (this allotment that is), (I don't have my own garden, never have), so I do have some influence over site policy. I guess you could call me a 'regular'. I switched to no dig just last year and decided to stop using slug pellets during that time as well. Next year I intend to use just organic certified seed. I'm also changing to use of purely organic mulches, as in the past I have not distinguished between organic and non-organic product. I will be soon.

I feel a little uneasy about mentioning my dislike of this stuff to anyone, because people do gossip a lot, and word may get round that I have a problem with certain other people - some people feed off that sort of thing, and I don't want my words to be used against me.

Just a quick mention about weeds and pulling them in the conventional fashion : I use permeable weed membrane (it has to be permeable) on ground I'm not using, so I hope to persuade people with that strategy. Gcover is relatively inexpensive, and in my opinion the second best option to mulching with quality organic matter. I have taken on two sites now, one was especially overgrown (with no work for two years). Firstly I walked over the weeds to flatten everything, then I applied inexpensive ground cover to the areas I didn't have the time or resources to work straight away. Yes, there is an arguement for turning the soil, this allows you to pick the trash out of it (bits of plastic, other inorganic rubbish), but this does not need to happen to start cultivation. You can get started much more quickly and effectively planting through covers, or using covers in the way I've described, and only working a very small area at a time. I can't see why moving in on the ground and smashing everything down via pulling, or worst, weed killer, is a sensible approach?

Another change I could make is to put up a wind barrier (only a few feet high of course) that would stop the winds when they get bad, and have the dual purpose effect of stopping drift from chemical spray in the air. That's a reasonable idea.

In terms of how many grower's are using weed killer? I realistically have no idea. It could be anywhere from 2-50, more, or less. I think the site would benefit from some sort of register, or log of those that use it and those that don't. It would be interesting to see how many people would tell the truth then - who and who wouldn't want to be associated with such a register. Would some people be less likely to use it knowing the negative connotation attached to it? Hmm.

I don't know the damage that weed killer has caused to my plot, but then I am thinking from an environmental perspective. If it were possible to isolate the contaminated areas and section them away, that would be great, but it doesn't work like that. Nature knows no boundaries, and anything you expose it to will result in over-spill, won't it ? I don't know what chemical damage looks like, I've honestly never used weed killer of any kind, and never intend to.

Lastly, if I wished to sell my excess produce, or give it away, some people may have a problem with eating my fruit and veg if I tell them how close I am to these chemicals on site. It does not feel good, and would feel like I'm lying to them. Taking a broader view though, how organic can any grower be living in London ? Our air is full of all sorts of nasty stuff, but still the quest is to minimise the amount of exposure we are getting to harmful chemicals, that's what organic is all about. It seems, quite frankly balmy to use weedkiller in this context.

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Summarily:

1 )Ask for a guidelines on use to be added to the site allotment handbook, OR, ask that a circular be sent round to everyone about guidelines of use, and have them sign it.

2 ) Ask if organic 'zones' can be implemented as a strategy, albeit a long-term one. This would allow those with similar attitudes to clump together. However, if there are plots within the organic zone that have had chemicals applied, non-chemical users won't then touch them, so that would raise all sorts of complications. It also doesn't work if chemical users are on the boundaries of organic zones, because there will be drift/surface run off, as these chemicals spread through the environment. I personally, would not touch a plot that has had weed killer applied in the last 10 years.

3) Bring in someone with expertise on organic gardening to do a talk/presentation, although this would need to be done sensitively to avoid making people feel like they are being 'sold' an idea or philosophy. I have felt this way in the past after attending such a thing.

4) Petition the committee to ban the use of all herbicides and pesticides on this. This may be a good time to do it as Monsanto is in the news again. Glyphosate has also been banned in Germany as research linked the herbicide to mutilations and birth defects in livestock.

5) Targeting the users of weedkiller individually and trying to convince them that there are better ways to garden via the use of Gcovers, consistent mulching and hoeing. Those that don't want to invest in covers and mulch could be encouraged to leave the site if they are not seen to adopt environmentally friendly ways of managing their plots.


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My personal view is that this glyphosate should be banned outright, as I think that solves all of the problems in one swoop. There are always going to be those that deny it is harmful, or refuse to accept the scientific studies showing this. I've every respect to alternative opinions, but not where others are harmed or injured as a result of those opinions/ignorance.

Hope that covers it.

[Greenleaves]

I have closed this thread before it potentially becomes a bun fight. Everyone has a right to express their view and I believe that's been done.

If my colleagues believe it should it should remain open they will take that call