Would you halve your plot size to reduce waiting lists?

[Linzy]

It would make sense for any unwanted allotments they get year on year to halve them. That way two people will get ago not just one. I don't think it would be fair to halve existing allotmenteers plots. Strange, i was in London last week and on the DLR line and was really surprise how much waste land there is. Why are councils not trying to encourage people to use all this spare land. Wasted opportunity there me thinks.

[alldigging]

We've got plots that aren't full size because of the shape of the site.
We've also got out of 9 full size plots only 4 full plots left as the rest have been split.

The smaller plot size should mean they're more manageable for people to work and keep tidy. We do have people who've asked for more space. I'd love more plot, but the rules say only one per household. (Although some other sites couples have a plot each from when there was no waiting lists ...)

I do think the answer would be more allotment spaces in areas of high demand, but there's a lot of effort and money needed to go into setting up new sites.

Locally there's some spare land that could be used as allotment type spaces but it all takes time and effort.

[Edith]

Yeah. It is a really hard one because for me, I think the issue is, really, that the Council needs to prioritise turning more land into allotments. And people do need to get together and organise a bit better than they are. I see great things on here, and that's inspiring, but round me, it surprises me that people aren't a lot more proactive about making the council give them spaces. Certainly round me I know several people who really say they want plots - we have three year waiting lists- but won't campaign for them. I kind of feel that the people who now often have two plots are the same people who were there ten, twenty, thirty years ago, making sure that there was actually a demand for them and so meaning that now, when everyone wants to do the goodlifer thing, the plots have not all been sold off as prime development land. These guys typically not only kept their plots, but organised and campaigned and turned up to run the shop. The other thing is that typically they will be absolute fonts of knowledge. Anyone who has kept two plots in good condition first off is very committed and isn't going to give up their plot to developers, and second is a very good gardener and has a lot to offer.

Another small point is that we have spaces on a few plots locally, I believe-but these are not on the "nice" plots. They are a little further out of town (though totally doable by bus-Cardiff isn't that big). They maybe don't have a nice site shop or the same feel as one of the well established plots but my feeling is that this is for people to do. The well established plots are like this because of people with a serious vested interest (2 plots would be that :-) ) who come down pretty much every day and will be in the front line if the site is ever threatened by a developer.

You also need, I think, to look at the plots people have. We've actually just downsized to a half plot. Before that we effectively had two plots-we mainly worked my parents one, which neighboured ours, as well. But the thing is, the soil was shocking. Even after eleven years of care and attention, the usable area, realistically, was about the same as we have now. It was terrible soil, on a north facing hill, the slugs were really unbelievable. So we did have two plots but my guess is that the return on those will be about the same of our smaller, sunnier, plot now.

[Veggielot]

I can see where they are coming from and for plots coming up for rent then that would be fine. I don't agree with making people give up half their plots though. Most of us have taken over plots that were in disrepair and have put a lot of work and money sorting them out.

There is also the practicality of how you would split them. Most have permanent fixtures, shed, greenhouse, compost bins, fruit tress and bushes, rhubarb and asparagus etc. how would they deal with these. I would have to either move half of mine or loose them, neither is an acceptable option and if I could then I probably wouldn't have any room to grow any vegetables

[Samurailord]

At our last AGM we voted to have it put into the rules that at least 75% of the plot has to be cultivated and that does not include a lawn or , wild flowers .........If people can't manage that then they can move to a smaller plot or give up half ( If it's a full sized one ) This is now in effect so we'll see what happens.........

We are doing something similar, but we are looking at including flowers as part of the cultivated area.

Calculating the 75% has also cause problems, as the calculation depends upon the gardening style.

For example, look at a plot with one long bed 4' wide and 30' long. This would have a calculated cultivated area of 120 sq meters, even though there would be a couple of trodden paths across the bed. If the same area is made of four raised beds with 2' paths between then the cultivated area would be only 96 sq meters even though the growing area would effectively be the same in both cases.

How are you treating newcomers? Obviously they can't reach 75% immediately.

Andy

[Edith]

My only concern with the 75% not including wild flowers would be that that could be an issue for bees/pollinators etc. I mean, if the other 25 % can be pure wild flowers then obviously there isn't a problem, and ditto if the committee will accept normal, cultivated flowers (though leaving an area to wild flowers can be an easy way of attracting pollinators especially when you are new). Basically if they are being sensible and operating within a general remit of increasing biodiversity, but have a specific concern around people not cultivating the plots, then that's fine, the concern I'd have is that specifically stating that wild flowers don't count rings mild alarm bells for me because it has the potential to make things harder for those trying to garden sustainably. I know with own local council, Cardiff, the council rules do make it hard to garden organically, and this is made much worse by how narrowly they are often interpreted and so I'd be specifically concerned about anything that could make having wildlife attracting areas harder.

I have to say, re the 75% I've just taken over a new half plot, which had the usual weeds, including perennials, brambles, and seemed mainly to have been used to grow carpet and broken glass. I took it on in February but haven't been able to work the soil til now because it was far too wet (this is Cardiff, we do rain properly!). Anyway, for two of us, pretty fit (cyclists!) in our thirties/forties, with three kids, its been fine to basically clear the plot and dig it over and I'd say, even being away over the bank holiday, we'll be done by next weekend. But we've had plots for pretty much our whole lives, have all the tools and occasional help from friends, and a car. I think if you didn't have that, 75% is a lot.

[alldigging]

(though leaving an area to wild flowers can be an easy way of attracting pollinators especially when you are new)

What do you mean by wild flowers?

[smallfrog]

I wouldn't give up any of my 1 and 1/2 plots but i did make sure there was no waiting list when i took the other half on. Just a warning the rest is a bit off topic and no help to people on long waiting lists.

I think if plots aren't being used but could be by someone who already has a plot this needs to be encouraged. On our site after last year we've had a lot of plots become available. Holding off giving these to people with allotments already will turn them back over to scrub land and the on set off the dark ages of empty allotments.
I strongly believe newbies need to start with a half plot or maybe less so they can prove themselves. Allotments take time and effort. Many people don't bank on the amount of work it takes to get a plot under control from a bit weedy to some of the forests of weeds we've seen on here it bloody hard work and for little rewards early on. Far better to start with something small and then grow with it.

I also think from standing on my soapbox that sites should look at a maintenance approach to empty plots. The bubble will burst and allotments may fall out of favor again. I can bet that most councils will be eying up the land for houses. Newbies are that new and maybe need a gentle nudge and a shoulder to cry on. We all had to start somewhere and a untended plot can be a very lonely place, when your looking at 6ft of blackberrys.
I'm grateful to all my old un's for the advice, the help digging, the chicken eggs and the time they spend with me and my family and i hope one day i might be able to offer to help someone else out whose not coping as well they might with there plot. It is there plot but it is also your allotment so I'm all for encouraging encouragement.

[Edith]

" i hope one day i might be able to offer to help someone else out whose not coping as well they might with there plot. It is there plot but it is also your allotment so I'm all for encouraging encouragement."

I so agree with this

We've moved sites recently. The difference is huge. In no way is that a criticism of the previous site secretary, he and his wife were lovely, lovely people but the layout of the allotment, the meeting space available and the simple fact that the site was just very hard work (north facing, Welsh, clay hill) meant that there just was not really a community feel. My new plot just feels very different.

By the way there is another advantage to half plots. It really helps with the social aspect. You can't just vanish off to your empire, you are cheek by jowl with others mainly. Which is a good thing, I think, in terms of building an allotment community.

[Alison]

By the way there is another advantage to half plots. It really helps with the social aspect. You can't just vanish off to your empire, you are cheek by jowl with others mainly. Which is a good thing, I think, in terms of building an allotment community.

This depends on why you want your lottie, I didn't get mine for any social aspect, I just wanted to provide food for our table and to be honest I have very limited time so don't really have time or want the social side of things. I'm quite happy to speak to my lottie neighbours and get on well with the ones I regularly see but totally relish the peace and quiet when I'm up there on my own - does wonders for my mental health and gives me the opportunity to get loads done.

[binley100]

By the way there is another advantage to half plots. It really helps with the social aspect. You can't just vanish off to your empire, you are cheek by jowl with others mainly. Which is a good thing, I think, in terms of building an allotment community.

Tbh it doesn't make a difference to the social aspect having only half plots. Our site has very large plots and we have an excellent community for those who want to get involved.
It's all down to how the site is run .......

[binley100]

We are doing something similar, but we are looking at including flowers as part of the cultivated area.

Flowers are fine ......weeds under the guise of wild flower meadows are not

Calculating the 75% has also cause problems, as the calculation depends upon the gardening style.

Causes no problems .....we all recognise different gardening styles and a football pitch is not cultivation

For example, look at a plot with one long bed 4' wide and 30' long. This would have a calculated cultivated area of 120 sq meters, even though there would be a couple of trodden paths across the bed. If the same area is made of four raised beds with 2' paths between then the cultivated area would be only 96 sq meters even though the growing area would effectively be the same in both cases.

Like I said , we recognise the fact that some grow in tradtional long rows and some grow in beds

How are you treating newcomers? Obviously they can't reach 75% immediately.

We understand that perfectly well .....

Andy

It's obvious when no work has taken place .....then its time for questions to be asked

[Vince G]

This depends on why you want your lottie, I didn't get mine for any social aspect, I just wanted to provide food for our table and to be honest I have very limited time so don't really have time or want the social side of things. I'm quite happy to speak to my lottie neighbours and get on well with the ones I regularly see but totally relish the peace and quiet when I'm up there on my own - does wonders for my mental health and gives me the opportunity to get loads done.

Amen to that! Exactly the feelings of my wife and I. We've made some friends up there, but we're there to produce food and to restore a little bit of sanity into our hectic lives.

As regards sharing our plot....not a chance. In fact we've just taken on a second neighbouring plot....and we're eyeing up the one next to that, that seems to only be having about a third of it cultivated. Allegedly there are waiting lists at our field, but there are a lot of untended or poorly tended plots whose tenants should be evicted IMHO. Give the plots to those that are keen

[Edith]

Well yes I guess its always going to be a personality thing whether you want to chat to people when you are up there. There are also going to be a host of factors at play. On our new site, the simple fact of having a couple of shared plots turned over to lawn where people can gather and eat, or the kids can play, also makes a difference. Having soil that is straightforward, meaning that once you are up there you might have a chance to chat a bit, makes a difference. The layout is different too, as it the demographic-far more families. But I do think once difference I've noticed so far is that you have to communicate far more with others and my hunch is that that is why, so far, it seems like a much friendlier site.

I do accept that not everyone wants friendliness, or families, or what have you-and that's fine, there's plenty of other sites locally-but I'm partly looking at it from an entirely utilitarian perspective though. Sites with strong communities tend to be sites with other good things: well run shops, someone to go to if there are problems. Workdays which hopefully have more people in attendance than the committee. But more importantly I think, they are ultimately going to be sites that have more sway with the council, that are harder to close if there are issues.