taking the fruit tree plunge

[bikermike]

We are going to go for it this winter

bare-rooted trees seem to be the way to go

I've seen a number of things, and wondered what the view was
1) double-grafted (ie two varieties of pear on one root-stock) - do they last? will they need more attention?
2) traditional varieties - these look to be more complicated (not self-fertile) with a lower yield
3) pears advertised as self-fertile - is this possible (absent of growing two sorts on one tree).

The allotment rules say any fruit tree has to be dwarf form - presumably any reputable nursery will be able to tell me this and I should avoid any that don't

In general, I am planning to dig a big hole, fill it with compost/soil and put tree in. What else to I need to do?
- watering?
- feed?
- pest control? (I understand you need grease bands over-winter when it's fruiting, and general observation of plant as it grows)
- magic incantations?


On a depressing note - someone on our allotment group has complained about a tree being stolen. Anyone ever had this? any ideas? I am thinking about putting the usual tree stake supporting stake and collar, but putting some metal crossbars in below ground to make it harder to lift.

[burnie]

Yep Wassailing is compulsory with growing fruit you have to tell us all which night you plan to dance naked round the trees(just so we can avoid the area lol).
My only serious comment would be that this so called self pollinating is not as good as proper pollination, make sure you get some disease resistance and make sure the varieties are of the right pollination groups. Dwarf root stocks are common enough, but be aware that pears can be more vigorous than apples and will need some maintenance.

[bikermike]

Thanks Burnie


*cancels woad order* Lucky escape for the other plot-holders there...

Noted re self-pollination. With non-self pollination do you need two different trees or can you have two the same? If you have different, do you end up with cross breed? (I looked at one nursery table and I couldn't immediately see this).

[nickdub]

In general, I am planning to dig a big hole, fill it with compost/soil and put tree in. What else to I need to do?
- watering?
- feed?
- pest control? (I understand you need grease bands over-winter when it's fruiting, and general observation of plant as it grows)
- magic incantations?


On a depressing note - someone on our allotment group has complained about a tree being stolen. Anyone ever had this? any ideas? I am thinking about putting the usual tree stake supporting stake and collar, but putting some metal crossbars in below ground to make it harder to lift.

You raise some interesting questions - I'll do my best, but please bear in mind that a people have written books trying to cover this topic - there is a lot of information needed to fully explain things.

-- bare-rooted trees seem to be the way to go ---- usually cheaper and a wider range of varieties available, places like large supermarkets etc offer occasional bargains - I bought a v well grown plum tree recently at B&Q recently for £6


1) double-grafted (ie two varieties of pear on one root-stock) - do they last? will they need more attention?
Can be v tricky to balance the tree if one variety grows more strongly ---- I'm not sure they're worth the extra cost - you can always do a bit of DIY grafting later, if you can obtain scions from somewhere.

2) traditional varieties - these look to be more complicated (not self-fertile) with a lower yield

I wouldn't say that exactly, though it is true that popular modern varieties are usually more heavy croppers - some would say at the cost of flavour.

3) pears advertised as self-fertile - is this possible (absent of growing two sorts on one tree).

Fertility is a complicated issue with any fruit tree - on the other hand you seem to be in a city location, so its probably less of a problem where you are as bees don't care who own trees and will fly a few miles collecting pollen - weather at flowering time and late frosts are probably bigger potential problems


The allotment rules say any fruit tree has to be dwarf form - presumably any reputable nursery will be able to tell me this and I should avoid any that don't

If the nursery don't know if a tree is on dwarfing stock or not its time to buy else-where - usually the on-line catalogue will state what stock trees are on - personally I've not had much joy growing pears, so I'd tend to go for apples and plums first, then consider how much space I had left. BTW don't crowd the trees together - you can grow other stuff between them when they are small but as they grow bigger they need light and air to stay healthy and fruit - eg two 12' high tress should be 24' apart.

"In general, I am planning to dig a big hole, fill it with compost/soil and put tree in. What else to I need to do?"

I wrote a short piece in a thread about 9 months ago on planting trees which you might find useful.

- watering? --- Yes in the first summer may need to be weekly
- feed? - as long as the ground is OK not usually necessary until they start cropping

- pest control? (I understand you need grease bands over-winter when it's fruiting, and general observation of plant as it grows) -- pests can build up, but you usually have a few years before anything needs doing
- magic incantations? Optional, though I do sell a very inexpensive magic crystal which guarantees .... :-)


In general I'd advise anyone planting fruit to try to grow varieties that you like, provided they are suitable for where you live eg Bramleys are good croppers but not many people enjoy them raw, whereas Comice is a lovely pear but in my garden I reckon it would be hopeless due to the cold and wet.

Finally late ripening apples store for much longer, so if you get a bumper crop you have a couple of months to enjoy them - my favourite is Ashmead's kernel.


PS barbed wire buried in the planting hole to deter thieves ?

[veggiechicken]

Assuming there are other fruit trees on the allotments, I wouldn't worry too much about pollination partners, the bees will find some!
I'd plant cheap and cheerful fruit trees on an allotment and spend "real" money on trees for home - especially if you're concerned about theft.
What is a dwarf tree? Does that mean it mustn't be taller than a specified height, rather than on a dwarfing rootstock? I keep all my trees to a reachable height by festooning the branches down - it also seems to improve cropping.

[4Shoes]

Pollination.
The time of blossom will have more of an impact on what trees you can grow. Too early and a late frost may burn the fruit. I wouldn't expect that to be a problem in London - best check your last frost date against the blossom dates.

Self Fertile.
Fruit Trees in built up area are easier to grow because there is nearly always a pollination partner close by. Using Self fertile trees reduces the risk, but since there are other fruit trees on the Allotments, I'd expect you to be alright. You could ask what trees they have and ensure you grow a tree that is a partner. Even with self fertile trees you will get a larger crop with a partner close by.


Root Stock

Apple
M27 - Very Dwarfing - 1 -2m (don't grow on poor soils)
M9 - Dwarfing 2-3m
M26 - Semi Dwarfing 3 - 4m
MM106 - Semi Vigorous 4-5m
M25 Vigorous 5-6m

Pear - Quince A Semi Vigorous 4 - 5m
Cherry - Colt - Semi Dwarfing 3 - 4m
Plum St Julien A - Semi Dwarfing 3 - 4m

Spacing.
Height of tree between trees. Grow soft fruit under

Weather.
I've to watch that fruit will tolerate wet conditions to prevent canker. Again should not be a problem with you.

Duo trees - hear say is that one tends to take over. Grow if space limited, but better with a true tree.

So bottom line from here looks like - If there are lots of fruit trees on the Allotment or if many gardens around, grow any fruit you like the taste. Check the root stock and enjoy. You could always stick a crab apple tree label on them to stop theft in 1st year.

Look for some of the rare tree perhaps.


All best

[burnie]

Until recently I had the only 3 apple trees in our village(more are now growing on a community space), I have had a look round a few modern housing developments of late and fruit trees are absent from most. I wouldn't rely on someone else's trees for pollination round here.

[Mark_Riga]

Hello Mike, I would agree with Nick that apple and plum (Victoria does really well) are more reliable fruiting than pears but you may know what does really well locally. If there is a good garden centre/nursery nearby, they may be able to advise. I know there is a really prolific conference pear next door to my daughter in Manchester so one of those should be OK in London. Looks like it has been battened down like VC suggests. My daughter bought a dual pear that is conference and Williams I think, and the conference side looked far more vigorous at the end of its first year just. I went to Aldi a couple of years ago to see if they had a conference but they only had some other varieties. I bought 2 and have spread their branches out using a long cane but have only had a couple of pears off them so far.

[4Shoes]

Pollination partner.

Should have said that the partner can be same and one either side.

For apples I think they us A, B, C, D, E - Each letter (or number) represents a week, so if there was an Egremont Russet on site. It is a group B, you could consider a Scotch Dumpling (A) or a Discovery (C)


NB... Some growers use numbers 1,2,3,4,5

[FB.]

Pollination partner.

Should have said that the partner can be same and one either side.

For apples I think they us A, B, C, D, E - Each letter (or number) represents a week, so if there was an Egremont Russet on site. It is a group B, you could consider a Scotch Dumpling (A) or a Discovery (C)


NB... Some growers use numbers 1,2,3,4,5

There even seem to be two versions of the alphabetical blossoming times.
One uses A-F (and would put Court Pendu Plat in group F) while the other uses A-H (and would put CPP in group H).

Others use the figures for the NFC trees which shows the most likely days the variety will flower in Kent.
For example: Discovery is shown as peak flower around 12th May, with some viable flowers usually present from 7th-19th May (the average start and end dates for its flowers to open).

However, flowering times and pollination is an immensely complex subject, affected by location, soil type, shading, weather, tree age, tree size, rootstock and more.

In most areas apples seem to be pollinated acceptably well.

Location:
Trees in milder areas tend to blossom earlier. Trees in windy locations may have their blossoms damaged or the bees may be deterred from flying to the tree because bees don't like wind either.

Soil type:
Heavy soils remain cold for longer so trees are slower to get going. Light soils warm up faster and trees come to life earlier.

Shading:
Affects soil temperatures in similar ways to cooler regions or shaded ground.

Weather:
Each variety has an optimum temperature for its flowers and pollen; a few degrees too warm or too cool and the pollen and/or flowers can have poor viability even if it's not frosty.

Tree age and size:
Older, larger trees usually open the flowers on their oldest wood first, while the youngest shoots can be a week or so later to open their flowers. Therefore older, larger trees flower over a longer period of time, increasing their value as a pollinator but also increasing their chances of being pollinated or of not losing al their blossom to a few frosty nights.

Rootstock:
Some rootstocks encourage the scion to come out of dormancy earlier than the same variety other rootstocks.

Triploid:
Personally, I think most triploids are reasonably self-fertile - more self-fertile than most diploids.

[FB.]

As for what to plant:

Varieties which are tasty but which can't be found easily in the shops or markets.
M26 rootstock.
Varieties that are well-behaved and not too vigorous.

[bikermike]

thanks all - I am taking notes. Hoping to do the deed soon.

[FB.]

thanks all - I am taking notes. Hoping to do the deed soon.

Once you've decided but before you buy, it would be a good idea to update this topic to see if anyone has any useful comments to make - maybe someone has good or bad experiences of what you choose.

[It never rains..it pours]

Have a tri variety apple tree on normal rootstock and pleased with it, especially as only room for one apple tree. Longer harvest, lots of variety when eating, one wont keep but lovely to eat, another will but more like a shop apple to eat. Pruning simple to keep even and it has the goblet shape by default from the tri graft point. May also get cross polliantion. Wondering if could graft a walnut onto a walnut to help pollination for one tree
However no idea how duo or tri work out on a dwarf rootstock

[nickdub]

I'd think grafting on another variety of walnut would be possible.

Two factors to bear in mind :-
1) the main mechanism for pollen transport is the wind, so the graft should be high up in the tree.
2) female flowering times and the production times of catkins would need to be paired, so you'd need to research the varieties.