Apple cordon varieties for Gloucestershire

[Randommoose]

Hi,
I've moved house and would be grateful for some dessert apple tree variety suggestions and input. The people on this forum were so helpful when I asked 7 years ago with my previous house thank you!

I've been here a year and last winter planted 2 apples and 2 plums in the front garden. All doing well. Now I am working on the back garden, this winter I want to put in some more apples and crab apple(s) and would appreciate a sanity check on my plans and suggestions for any varieties that might suit my situation particularly well.

Priorities are taste (I like sweet-sharp, juicy, crisp and dislike dry, very acidic or mealy. I think I like aromatic, vinous and sweet but haven't had those in recent years), disease resistance (suitable for organic growing) and spur bearing as they will be grown as oblique cordons.

Situation is Gloucestershire, loam top soil, clay subsoil, normal drainage, SE facing fence, full sun other than evening.

I currently have Cevaal (effectively Red Windsor) on M26 bush and Red Falstaff MM106 bush. I really like them both. I want other varieties to eat in the times I am not eating those two. Only small crops required. I would like some variety of flavour/type (eg a russet, a Worcester Pearmain type, an aromatic type), parentage and I am including more local varieties with the idea they suit the area.

August varieties:
Beauty of Bath - earliest but probably not good enough flavour
Discovery - I had problems a few miles away with Rosette (caterpillars and aphids) - will this have the same?
Scrumptious

Early September:
Cevaal [Red Windsor] (already planted) - excellent taste, healthy, big clean apples

Late September:
Honeycrisp
Herefordshire Russet
Hunts Duke of Gloucester (maybe October, varying information online)
Saturn

October:
Red Falstaff (already planted) - excellent taste, healthy, big clean apples.

Late October:
Ashmead's Kernel
Bright Future
Winston


I have previously grown Rajka (good but a bit forgettable taste, healthy) and Rosette (weak even on MM106, couldn't outgrow the caterpillars and aphids so I didn't get an apple in 5 years). Out of the varieties above I think I have only tasted Discovery and Scrumptious and liked both but that was years ago. I also have a longer list with loads more varieties but I think I have narrowed it down a bit to this list above!

Have you got any suggestions for varieties I maybe haven't considered? Input on the varieties above (especially how they do in Gloucestershire or nearby counties)?

Thank you!
Moose

[ameno]

From personal experience, I would advise against Beauty of Bath.
It tastes good when fully ripe and fresh (sweet, slightly tart and very fragrant, although admittedly nothing special), but it's keeping qualities are non-existent (goes mealy within 2-3 days off the tree; even by the next day it's past its best), and most damningly, it is very prone to premature dropping.
The variety is apparently known for it - the join between the stalk and tree is very weak, and once the apple reaches a certain size, it is liable to just fall off. Mine sheds 90% of its crop before it is fully ripe, and almost all of the rest as soon as it is ripe. I pick maybe two or three apples direct from the tree each year. The rest I have to pick up off the ground.
Admittedly, mine is on an M27 (very dwarfing) rootstock, and on a more vigorous rootstock the dropping problem may not be quite as severe, but it will surely still be an issue.
The only other things I can say in support of it is that it is at least disease-free. No scab or canker or anything else, and it doesn't even seem to be bothered by coddling moth, despite my Sunset growing not two metres away being plagued by it.
And it is indeed very early. Mine are all picked (and picked up) by the end of July.

As for varieties I would recommend, last year I bought a Christmas Pippin, and this year I had the first fruit from it, and I really can't recommend it enough. It's a cox-like apple, and is probably the most delicious apple I have ever eaten: crisp, but not too hard; sweet and juicy, with cox's signature fragrance. The tree seems problem-free so far in terms of disease, etc., too, although obviously it's early days.
It's a late-October cropper, and the apples seem to keep well (although admittedly mine were all eaten within three weeks, since I didn't let it bear too many fruit this year).

I should also mention that all early apples have no keeping qualities, and will last at best one week in the fridge before going mealy, and less at room temperature. Beauty of Bath is a particularly poor keeper, though.

[veggiechicken]

Here's a link to your previous thread as there may be some overlap with the advice on varieties for you to think about https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...ise_68624.html

[Randommoose]

...I would advise against Beauty of Bath...tastes good ...nothing special...very prone to premature dropping...disease-free...

Sunset growing not two metres away being plagued by it [codling moth]

... I would recommend... Christmas Pippin... cox-like apple... most delicious ... problem-free so far in terms of disease... late-October cropper

Thank you ameno, this is the sort of information I'm after - people's actual experience from growing various varieties. You have confirmed the negatives I have read about Beauty of Bath elsewhere. By the sounds of it Sunset wouldn't be much good due to the codling moth. I had Christmas Pippin on my longer list but not on the shorter one as it seemed it would crop at the same time as the Red Falstaff so it is interesting that it is late October for you.

VeggieChicken, thanks for including the link, maybe I should have done that in the original post. I've used the very helpful advice on that thread for making my long list this time and then added a few other varieties now I am more open to different flavours and will have more trees. It is just tricky to find out what order different varieties crop in as different websites say different things! Also I don't really know what diseases are around in this area and therefore what types of disease resistance I need.

At my previous house the apple trees got aphids which Red Falstaff and Rajka outgrew no problem (I squished them in the first year or two though). Rosette couldn't outgrow it and even with squishing them was badly damaged. Rosette also got its buds eaten every year by caterpillars but I don't know what type of caterpillar. At this house there have only been some aphids and not enough to trouble the young apple or plum trees (they prefer the cherry suckers anyway). No other disease so far. There is no disease on my in laws Bramley a few roads away but I know that is a tough triploid.

[nickdub]

Ashmead is my favourite late keeping apple, just picked some today - and as you may know it was bred in Gloucestershire - I have heard good reports about Herefordshire Russet, but not grown it myself - I also like James Grieve and George Cave.

[Randommoose]

Ashmead is my favourite late keeping apple, just picked some today - and as you may know it was bred in Gloucestershire - I have heard good reports about Herefordshire Russet, but not grown it myself - I also like James Grieve and George Cave.

Thanks for the reply. I have seen lots of good reports about Ashmead and it is good to get another one from a local grower. How would you describe the taste? You say you have picked some today - how long do they hold on the tree? The Winston variety I am considering for very late also holds its apples late (Nov-Dec).

The Red Falstaff I have is a James Grieve offspring and I really like the taste. This year the young tree held its couple of apples through till early November but I can't remember with my older one at the previous house if that was normal or if this one was just late this year.

Herefordshire Russet is on my list as it is local. I hadn't heard of it before a week ago! I've never heard of George Cave before so I've looked that up and it could be an alternative to Discovery. Is it sharp or sweet-sharp? I can't have anything too acidic as my stomach can't deal with it!

Thanks,
Moose

[devonuk]

Discovery is a partial tip-bearer so not great for cordons.

Epicure is sweet and crunchy and very early.

I like Rajka, but mine is insanely vigorous so I'd be cautious about growing as a cordon. And the apples are huge.

[nickdub]

Thanks for the reply. I have seen lots of good reports about Ashmead and it is good to get another one from a local grower. How would you describe the taste? You say you have picked some today - how long do they hold on the tree? The Winston variety I am considering for very late also holds its apples late (Nov-Dec).

The Red Falstaff I have is a James Grieve offspring and I really like the taste. This year the young tree held its couple of apples through till early November but I can't remember with my older one at the previous house if that was normal or if this one was just late this year.

Herefordshire Russet is on my list as it is local. I hadn't heard of it before a week ago! I've never heard of George Cave before so I've looked that up and it could be an alternative to Discovery. Is it sharp or sweet-sharp? I can't have anything too acidic as my stomach can't deal with it!

Thanks,
Moose

Like a lot of late apples the taste does vary as they sweeten when you store them - off the tree now the Ashmeads will be sweetish and and slightly nutty but have that usual not quite ripe tangy apple taste - the flesh is juicy but on the dry side - as they sit in storage they gradually get a bit drier and little less sharp

Best bet, if you fancy a trip into the Boonies and are free some time this coming week PM me on here, I'll send you my address and a contact phone number and you can come and help yourself to a carrier bag full or 10 - I've probably got 4 hundred weight or so on two trees and its you, the birds , squirrels and the deer in the competition so far for getting a share - one of my best looking crops ever - Its about a 35 minutes drive from Gloucester Cathedral to my front door, if the roads are clear - I'm nailed down here for at least a week, so we should easily be to fix a time - I'll chuck in a cup of tea and a piece of home made cake in too if that will sway you - been desperate to have someone to talk to as my wife has had more than enough of me wittering on at her after about 30 minutes

Can't say fairer than that ;-)

Nick

PS all bets are off after the first -5 C frost of course - you can't store apples which have been frozen on the tree

[nickdub]

Thanks for the reply. I have seen lots of good reports about Ashmead and it is good to get another one from a local grower. How would you describe the taste? You say you have picked some today - how long do they hold on the tree? The Winston variety I am considering for very late also holds its apples late (Nov-Dec).

The Red Falstaff I have is a James Grieve offspring and I really like the taste. This year the young tree held its couple of apples through till early November but I can't remember with my older one at the previous house if that was normal or if this one was just late this year.

Herefordshire Russet is on my list as it is local. I hadn't heard of it before a week ago! I've never heard of George Cave before so I've looked that up and it could be an alternative to Discovery. Is it sharp or sweet-sharp? I can't have anything too acidic as my stomach can't deal with it!

Thanks,
Moose

Like a lot of late apples the taste does vary as they sweeten when you store them - off the tree now the Ashmeads will be sweetish and and slightly nutty but have that usual not quite ripe tangy apple taste - the flesh is juicy but on the dry side - as they sit in storage they gradually get a bit drier and little less sharp

Best bet, if you fancy a trip into the Boonies and are free some time this coming week PM me on here, I'll send you my address and a contact phone number and you can come and help yourself to a carrier bag full or 10 - I've probably got 4 hundred weight or so on two trees and its you, the birds , squirrels and the deer in the competition so far for getting a share - one of my best looking crops ever - I'm about 35 minutes drive from Gloucester Cathedral to my front door if the roads are clear - I'm nailed down here for at least a week, so we should easily be to fix a time - I'll chuck in a cup of tea and a piece of home made cake in too if that will sway you - been desperate to have someone to talk to as my wife has had more than enough of me wittering on at her after about 30 minutes

Can't say fairer than that ;-)

Nick

PS all bets are off after the first -5 C frost of course - you can't store apples which have been frozen on the tree

[nickdub]

George Cave is pretty mild you can eat them straight if the tree or store for a week or so- crops well every year, disease free and sets easily when in flower - the only real problem is it will over-crop if you let it and go biennial - so you have to thin about 50+% of the set fruit-lets every year - fewer apples means bigger fruit and a stronger tree for next year.

[Randommoose]

Thanks Nick, it would be great to get to taste some Ashmead apples. If I'd thought about this sooner then I could have gone to an apple day, though I suppose the latest apples might not be ready in time for those. I'll PM you.

George Cave is a possibility, thank you for suggesting it. Unfortunately, the supplier I am planning to order from doesn't do it but I suppose I could always get it somewhere else.

So far the plan is to end up with:
Discovery or George Cave
Cevaal
Saturn
Red Falstaff
Ashmead's Kernel
Winston or Topaz

That should give me a mix of different tastes while avoiding very dry or acidic. It is a mix of different parentage to help with disease resistance and I'll have at least 2 different rootstocks, again to help with disease resistance. Other than the George Cave, the rest can be supplied by my local(ish) organic nursery which has similar soil and climate.

Moose

[nickdub]

No worries always good for a visit from another fruit growing fan even if you can't make it this time

Of that list the one other I know a bit about is Discovery - not a big fan of the taste to be honest - though as usual home grown one might be different

I wouldn't worry too much if you miss an odd variety or another, what I would say is bang as many trees of whatever variety in the ground asap - you don't want to be planting frosty cold ground - if you do find you don't like one sort grafting is a very easy method of changing the variety later - but you never get a missed year of growth back .. so better to shove whatever in this week, as long as they aren't planted too close together.

I wrote a good wodge on fruit tree planting "Do's + Don'ts" somewhere on the vine two'ish years ago, and there's a fair chunk more on grafting too, scattered about the "Feeling Fruity" section BTW

[Randommoose]

Yes, I'm trying to get on with it. We've just demolished the old garage and replaced the fences so now trees are going in (bought house needing work, removed lots of leylandii and ivy). In the last few days I've had an ornamental order arrive with 8 trees/shrubs/climbers - I've planted the big bare root Rowan but all the potted things aren't in yet. I've got a couple of pulled muscles from all the heavy work so taking a couple of days off and researching what else to buy.

I'm getting one or more crab apples and need to decide those too.

I'll look up your previous posts and read the relevant ones. I don't want to think about grafting right now, when I have tried before it failed miserably! But it is a good point that I could change stuff if needed in the future.

[nickdub]

best bet with the grafting is to watch some you-tube videos of it and to make sure you have a really sharp knife - Stanley knife type is OK - I use cleft and wedge type grafts as I think they are a bit more fool proof -after that its just a matter of being careful to get the cambium layers lined up accurately - I usually get about 60% success, so I just graft twice as many scions as I need.

[Randommoose]

I especially bought an Opinel knife and grafting wax and everything... 0% success rate. I thought I lined it all up correctly. Obviously not!