Apple Pollination Groups

[FB.]

I have been growing some apple bushes and cordons for a few years now. Having observed their behaviour, it has struck me that -at least in my area- pollination groups seem to be modified by the rootstock.

From my observations...

MM106 brings forward flowering by three pollination groups (advances flowering by about a week and a half).
MM111 brings forward flowering by two pollination groups (advances flowering by about a week).
M9 brings forward flowering by one pollination group (advances flowering by about half a week).
M26 and M27 flower at about the correct time.

So, as an example, a group D on MM106 generally flowers at the same time as a group A on M26 - in my area.

While it doesn't entirely surprise me to see some variation between different rootstocks, I have seen no mention of this phenomenon in any books or articles.
Has anyone else noticed or experienced this?

Thanks,

FB.

[littlemark]

FB, I've no experience of this myself, but your observations may be of interest on the Fruit Forum: Fruit Forum

Mark

[FB.]

Thanks for the link, littlemark. I may try to join them.

FB

[daylily]

I thought that there wasn't a 'correct time' for flowering. This happens at slightly different times, depending on location and weather.

Don't know about effects of rootstock on this, got to happen consistantly in several specimens throughout years to be a valid observation, I would think.

You can be in for some discoveries, you never know...

[FB.]

"...I thought that there wasn't a 'correct time' for flowering. This happens at slightly different times, depending on location and weather..."

Yes, that's true.
In my area, most of the time, most apples flower a couple of weeks earlier than they're supposed to, but it varies from one year to another.

But the one's grafted onto MM106 almost always flower very early, while those on M26 seem to be only slightly early as compared to their "official" pollination group.

I have and have had quite a few apples in my collection, although I am often adding or changing to try out different varieties - mostly as cordons. Including past and present varieties (I still have many of them), I have observations from:

MM111 - bush;
Court Pendu Plat, D'Arcy Spice, Saturn.

MM106 - bush, cordon or espalier/fan;
Annie Elizabeth, Ashmead's Kernel, Crawley Beauty (x2), Discovery (x2), Golden Delicious, Howgate Wonder, James Grieve, Red Pippin, Spartan, Tydeman's Late Orange.

M26, M9 & M27 - bush or cordon;
Annie Elizabeth, Bramley clone 20 (x2), D'Arcy Spice (x2), Egremont Russet, Empire, Grenadier, Liberty, Meridian, Pinova, Reverend Wilks, Saturn, Spartan, Winston (x2), Winter Gem.

I have been making rough notes, but unfortunately haven't kept detailed records. I will start to keep a proper diary in future - perhaps I'll write a book one day!


Some glaring anomalies from this year that I can recall:

Pollination group "C" on MM106 flowered in mid April-late April.
Pollination group "B" on M26 flowered in late April-early May.
Of course, going "by the book", the group "B's" ought to come a few days before the "C's".

Where I have duplicates of the same type (Annie, Bramley, D'Arcy, Saturn), but grafted onto different rootstock, the M26-grafted one's are usually later flowering by a week or two.

I accept that flowering will partially be related to their planting position.
I also accept that it may be a phenomenon unique to my apples. But it would be very interesting if others had similar experiences.

I guess that it's not something that most people concern themselves with, since there are usually adequate pollination partners within a bee flight of any apple.
I guess it's the bee's problem - except when the MM106's flower early and get bitten by a late frost, which happened this year.

The problem with late frosts and MM106 is why I have some very late flowering varieties (Crawley, Court Pendu), or with frost-resistant blossom (James Grieve, Egremont).

FB

[valmarg]

Is the full name of your apple Court Pendu Plat?
valmarg

[FB.]

Is the full name of your apple Court Pendu Plat?
valmarg

Yes, it's full name is Court Pendu Plat.
It's French for something, but I've forgotten what it means and it's a long time since I studied French at school.
It's a bit of a mouthful or a lot of poking at a keyboard to say "Court Pendu Plat", so, like many other varieties, I tend to abbreviate their names to save space - I generally use only their first name - such as Annie(Elizabeth), Bramley(Seedling), Crawley(Beauty), D'Arcy(Spice), Egremont(Russet) and so on.

FB

[daylily]

Where I have duplicates of the same type (Annie, Bramley, D'Arcy, Saturn), but grafted onto different rootstock, the M26-grafted one's are usually later flowering by a week or two.

FB

That's the exciting bit, I think. Nurseries would have the same varieties on diff rootstock, could compare notes with some nursery men. I would.

[valmarg]

Sorry FB, it was curiosity that made me ask the question.

It is a variety my grandad used to grow.

I have some of his old gardening books which are 110 years old (The Fruit Grower's Guide). Court pendu plat is a variety quoted in there, as is Ashmead's Kernel. I suppose they would be classed as 'Heritage' varieties these days.

I haven't taken a lot of time to see what other trees you have that are mentioned in the books, but one of my one favourites was Peasgood Nonesuch. It was a dual purpose cooker/eater apple, but had a wonderful crisp/crunchy/juicy flavour.

Takes me back more years than I care to remember, but it is a lovely flavoured apple.

valmarg

[FB.]

valmarg

I have a preference for "heritage" (old fashioned) varieties because they are often more hardy and resistant to diseases than the modern "bred for chemical treatment" varieties. Great Grandad didn't have the chemicals that we have today and I prefer to leave nature to itself, with a no-spray or minimal-spray policy.

I don't have Peasgood's Nonsuch.
However, Peasgood's Nonsuch is reputed to be very good in my area - and a local nursery stock them, which is unusual considering that Peasgood is a rather obscure variety that I haven't seen in any other local nurseries.


FB

[valmarg]

FB, if you've got room for Peasgood, take my advice and give it a go. It tastes fantastic.

Mum and dad had a greengrocery shop (back in the late 30's/50s), and some of the apple varieties they used to stock are no longer available. One of my favourites was Worcester Pearmain, It was the first English variety, and was just so fresh, sweet, crispy crunchy, as good as the stored Cox's were they got a bit woolly, and it was nice to get a 'fresh' apple.

Blenheim Orange was my gran's favourite to use to make mincemeat for Christmas.

Sorry, I could wax lyrical on the old varieties of apples.

valmarg

[adrian901]

We have Beauty of Bath on different rootstocks and they flowered at the same time this year. Can compare any others. If anyone is looking ofr Ashmead's Kernel, it is on Ashridge's list of Fruit Trees.

Best
Ade

[FB.]

We have Beauty of Bath on different rootstocks and they flowered at the same time this year. Can compare any others. If anyone is looking ofr Ashmead's Kernel, it is on Ashridge's list of Fruit Trees.

Best
Ade

Hmmmm......

It'd be interesting to see whether your Beauty of Bath all go dormant at the same time this year.
My MM106's, in addition to flowering and leafing earlier, also seem to hold their leaves and fruit a few weeks later than other rootstocks.
I think that in my "collection" M9 generally goes dormant earliest, then M26, then MM106, but time of dormancy is not something that I have looked at closely.