Planting Apple Trees - Which Ones?

[ava]

Hi All!

I intend to plant two apple trees this winter, one of which will be a "Sunset".

However, I am not sure about the second one. As Sunset is a dessert apple I really would like the second one to be a cooker or dual purpose apple which should be in the same pollination group as Sunset (pollination group 3).

Does anyone have any experience regarding which would be the best cooker to grow when it comes to taste, cooking/storing properties and disease resistance?

[adrian901]

Planting Apple Trees

Sunset is a mid-season flowering self fertile apple (self -fertile means it will carry a crop without a pollinator nearby, although it does much better with one).

Suitable cooking apple pollinators for Sunset would include Ref. W Wilkes, Newton Wonder and Lord Derby (my favourite is Newton Wonder). You can see a full list of suitable pollinators in this table on apple tree pollination.

Good luck

[Tam]

I am a Charles Ross fan. It is a dual purpose apple, which has a lovely flavour as a dessert apple and, when it becomes a little woolly, makes a cracking cooker. It is a very large apple and is a popular apple for showing. We have had a Sunset for about thirty years and this is the first year that the crop has been poor - the weather was ghastly when the blossom was out.

[FB.]

If you plan to avoid the use of sprays, you need to consider that different areas of the UK face different disease problems.

I'm in Cambridgeshire, which borders onto Suffolk. I suspect that diseases you'll encounter may be similar to those that I face.
I don't spray at all, so my disease concerns are:

1. Powdery mildew.
Moderate or strong resistance to mildew is essential, otherwise the tree will become severely weakened and may not produce fruit. Mildew overwinters in dormant buds infected during the previous season. Because of that, it is possible to have a tree where every new shoot has mildew when it leafs-out the spring after infection. Flowers with mildew will not set fruit.

2. Scab.
Moderate scab resistance is desirable in wet seasons. In most seasons, the tree is not likely to be significantly harmed by scab in this area, but a large proportion of the fruits can be moderately damaged in a bad (wet) season.

3. Canker.
Canker is not a problem in this area.

As I understand it, Sunset's resistance to disease is:

Mildew: average resistance.
Scab: good resistance.
Canker: very poor resistance.


The mildew-resistant cookers that I grow, which should cross-pollinate with a Sunset are:

Grenadier.
Reverend Wilks.
Golden Delicious (dual-purpose).
James Grieve (dual-purpose).
Howgate Wonder (dual-purpose). Vigorous growing.


Peasgood's Nonsuch (dual-purpose, parent of Reverend.Wilks) seems unusually popular in this area. I don't grow it, but for something to be popular, it ought to do well and resist local diseases.

Hope that gives some ideas.

[FB.]

One more thing....

Dig a test-pit where you plan to grow your trees, to find out your subsoil. That'll help decide which rootstock to go for.
Dig down about two spade-depths, and you hit either sand+gravel, or clay subsoil.
If, like me, you're on a sand+gravel subsoil, what little rainfall we get rapidly drains away. the lack of water-retention means that I have to use much more vigorous rootstocks than would normally be used.

Generally accepted rootstock sizes at maturity are:
M27: 5ft.
M9: 7ft.
M26: 9ft.
MM106: 12ft.
MM111: 14ft.
M25: 18ft.

But for my area, I'd rewrite that as:
M27: 3ft.
M9: 4ft.
M26: 5ft.
MM106: 7ft.
MM111: 8ft.
M25: 12ft.

If you're on a clay subsoil, then your soil will probably hold moisture much better than my sand+gravel and you'd be able to use the normal sizes as a guide.

As it happens, I like MM106 and MM111 for their strong resistance to woolly aphids.
Lack of rainfall means that aphids don't easily get washed off the trees here. Wooly aphids are especially damaging - they cause unsightly "mouldy-looking" clumps on branches which end up with knobbly growths. They also attack the roots. The growths can be debilitating to the tree - especially when the roots are affected.

[ava]

Wow - thanks for all those comprehensive replies!

Loads of suggestions for suitable cookers/dual purpose apples - will go away and look them all up.

Thanks very much FB for the comments regarding diseases - good to know. I kind of was aware of the rootstocks but didn't know that they were that much affected by the soil type... Guess ours is clay if OH's swearing when he was digging the foundations (a whole 6 feet deep...) for our extension is anything to go by!

Re wooly aphids - we do have one mature, very sick looking apple tree in our garden which seems to be affected by wooly aphid. Hasn't had a single apple on it this year (only moved in in January so don't know what it was like in previous years). Was thinking of taking it down and replacing it with said two new trees. Do I now need to be worried about the new trees getting wooly aphid? Was thinking of going for M26 or maybe MM106 rootstocks.

[FB.]

I vastly prefer MM106 over M26, but each rootstock has it's uses.

MM106 will be:
Woolly aphid resistant.
Larger and stronger.
Deeper-rooted, so more drought tolerant.
Arguably better fruit quality.

M26 will be:
More tolerant of wet soils - especially prolonged surface water.

If your subsoil is sand+gravel, I'd recommend MM106. If it's clay and prone to saturated ground for days at a time, forget MM106.


In what way is your old tree "very sick looking"?
If it's a large and mature tree, I doubt that woolly aphids will be the main problem, athough they won't be helping. Woolly aphids are only really a problem on young trees or dwarfing rootstocks such as: M27, M9 and M26.
Woolly aphids could be present on nearby trees too, from where they'll fly onto yours. There might be no way to avoid them. I can't avoid them, so I have to defend against them. I have a Grenadier/M9 apple cordon, which is a sacrificial apple. The woolies seem to really love it and MM106 is well known for not being attractive to woolies (that's what it was bred for).

The lack of apples on your old tree could be because of:

Late frost (apples flowered early and we had a late frost this year).
Lack of pollination partner.
Lack of pollinating insects at flowering time.
Powdery mildew damaging the flower buds last year.
Insect larva burrowing into and destroying the developing fruit.
It could be a biennial bearer.


If you plant new apple trees in the same place as the old one, the new trees may well struggle to establish. There will be various insects, worms, bacteria and fungi that have been attacking the old tree over the years. The old tree will also have drained many apple nutrients from the soil.
The poor young trees could be malnourished and overwhelmed by the weight of the underground pest burden.

Normally, you'd replace with a different type of fruit tree.
If you must plant where the old one stands, you might want to consider digging out and replacing the old soil for a couple of spade depths - and for a couple of feet around each new tree.
Or consider using a much stronger rootstock than you would have otherwise chosen.

[ava]

Hi FB,

Thanks for all the advice.

Sounds like I need M26 as we have very heavy clay sub-soil. So MM106 sounds no good, although I like that it is wooly aphid resistant.

As for the old apple tree, I think it has been very much neglected over the years. It must be fairly old as it probably is a few metres tall. However, branches have been cut off 3-4in from the stem, it seems to have canker (I think, I am not an expert) and as I said I think it had wooly aphid all over when I looked at it earlier in the year. I appreciate that there are a number of reasons that it did not bear fruit this year and therefore I am not 100% sure what to do. It basically isn't a pretty looking tree but it would be a shame to take out an established tree...

When I said that I want to replace this tree, I did not mean in the same spot but in the same garden! Thinking of putting more veg bed in where the old tree is now...

[FB.]

If you have a heavy clay soil, there should be a good quantity of water locked into the soil, so your trees on M26 should grow fairly well.
In that situation, M26 should be OK, despite the woolly aphid attacks.
If you go for M26, make sure that they don't have woolly aphid visible on them when you buy the trees. Often, if they have woolly aphid on the trees that you want to buy when they're in the nursery, there's a good chance it'll already be attacking the roots. When you go to plant your M26's, inspect the roots for lumps ranging from pea-sized, up to half-inch across. If the roots are lumpy, take it back for replacement or refund. Don't plant a young tree with woolly aphid damage on the roots. It may not establish.

In heavy soil, MM106 could go two ways:
It might become very vigorous, or
It's roots might rot, resulting in stunting.

From what you say, if I were you, I woud be wary of MM106 for your situation.

Once you have planted your tree, assuming it's on M26, if you deal with woolly aphid colonies promptly for the first few years, the tree should be strong enough to tolerate them in later life.
As soon as you see the white "moulds" on the twigs, either blast them off with a water pistol, or gently brush them off and crush them with a soft toothbrush, or crush them with a tissue by hand.
If you stamp them out before they get too established on the branches, the roots shouldn't get too badly attacked.

Woolly aphids tend to increase the likelihood of canker, since woollies cause bark damage that allows canker spores to get in. Although canker isn't much of a problem in my (our) area, an old, neglected, woollyaphid-susceptible tree could easily have some cankers.
If I were going for M26 rootstocks, I would be wary of apples that are highly susceptible to canker, unless you're prepared to deal with woolly aphids very promptly and prepared to cut out any cankered twigs promtly.

From what you say, it sounds like the old tree would be best removed.

[southlondongardener]

I am growing Reverend Wilks. - first year this year but the fruit produced was nicer than Bramley - would recommend this.

Have you thought about a family tree with a mix of different fruit types?
I have one with jupiter, jester and fiesta - very nice cox type flavoured fruits but with less problems than cox has.

[ava]

FB - I am glad that you agree that the old tree might be best removed. I am really in two minds about it: for one I think it is a real shame to remove a mature tree, but then if it is quite diseased as this one is I guess it would be for the best.

southlondongardener - Thanks for pointing our the family tree option. I have seen these in our local nursery which specialises on fruit trees. I think it is a neat idea, although it doesn't quite feel right to me...

Does anybody have any experience with Lane's Prince Albert? Quite like what I read here:

Lanes Prince Albert Apple Trees - Cooking Apple

However, can't find anything about its disease resistance.

It also says above that a nearby crab apple tree is good for pollination - and I just spotted the huge one in our neighbours garden!

[FB.]

Looking at my notes, I can see why I might not have Lane's Prince Albert. Here are some extracts:

"Lacks vigour, except on good soil"
(I have poor soil)

"Susceptible to mildew"
(mildew is my biggest apple problem)

From a mixture of experience, recommendation and research, I don't think there are many other readily-available varieties that (without spraying) would thrive in my area than the one's I already have.
I have the following varieties (as bush/cordon/fan/espalier), which all seem to do well. They are intended for virtually all-year-round fruit availability (and varied flowering times, so that a late frost doesn't kill all the crop).
I'm also trialling some relatively new varieties as cordons, to see if they're as good as is claimed.

Dessert (in rough order of ripening):
Discovery
Ellison's Orange
Egremont Russet
Spartan
Ashmead's Kernel
Winston
Court Pendu Plat
Tydeman's Late Orange
D'Arcy Spice

Dual-purpose (in order of ripening):
James Grieve
Golden Delicious
Howgate Wonder
Crawley Beauty

Cooking (in order of ripening):
Grenadier
Reverend Wilks
Bramley
Annie Elizabeth

Dessert varieties on trial as cordons:
Meridian (reportedly immune to mildew)
Pinova (reportedly has many good features)
Saturn (bred specially for disease resistance/organic)
Liberty (bred specially for disease resistance/organic)
Red Pippin (reportedly very reliable, but less disease resistant)
Winter Gem (reportedly has many good features)

I've also been meaning to trial the new-ish dual-purpose "Bountiful" (Cox x Lane's Prince Albert) - Bountiful is claimed to be immune to mildew.

[ava]

Blimey FB - that's a lot of apples! Do you grow them commercially or do you just like apples very much and have a big backgarden?

Thanks for the comment on the Lane's Prince Albert! Will keep looking...

[FB.]

I have a good sized garden and apples are my favourite fruit. They are also easier to grow and/or more reliable than most other tree fruits.

I grow some of mine as "bushes/hedging" as an edging all around the garden, plus I grow many as compact forms such as fans/espaliers/cordons/minarettes, which don't take up much space.
I have several reasons for preferring a number of cordons and medium-sized bushes, rather than a big tree (although I'd love to be able to climb a big old apple tree!):

Easier to prune.
Easier to pick.
Easier to see pest/disease attack.
Easier to remove a dead/diseased one.
They ripen at different times, so I'm not overloaded all at once.
They have different season's of use, so I have a steady supply.
I get a variety of tastes as the season's change.
I have a variety of resistance to pests/diseases, making it harder for one disease to affect (or kill!) them all at once.
Mine flower over a very extended period (James Grieve in mid-April to Crawley Beauty in early June), so that late frost is not a worry.

Also bear in mind that my low-rainfall conditions and poor/sandy soil will reduce growth rates by 30-50%, so everything is miniature here. My cordons are grown where the ground is shaded - so soil holds water better - (but the cordon itself is in sun), so they don't have a water or growth problem.

Going clockwise around my garden, (from memory) I have:

D'Arcy Spice / M26 small cordon (D'Arcy is a very weak grower).
Liberty / M27 small cordon.
D'Arcy Spice / M26 small cordon.
Tydeman's Late Orange / MM106 unsupported espalier/fan.
D'Arcy Spice / MM111 bush (needs a strong rootstock to make it grow).
Spartan / MM106 bush.
Ashmead's Kernel / MM106 bush.
Ellison's Orange / MM106 bush.
Saturn / MM111 bush.
Annie Elizabeth / MM106 half-standard.
Court Pendu Plat / MM111 bush (needs a strong rootstock to make it grow).
Howgate Wonder / MM106 half-standard.
James Grieve / MM106 bush.
Red Pippin / MM106 cordon/bush (needs a strong rootstock to make it grow).
Discovery / MM106 bush.
Egremont Russet / M26 bush with a wall shading the roots, so moist ground.
Golden Delicious / MM106 bush.
Crawley Beauty / MM106 cordon (needs MM106 to boost vigour).
Bramley / M26 bush (needs M26 to control it's vigour)
Winston / M26 cordon.
Grenadier / M9 cordon (the woolly aphid's favourite attraction!)
Annie Elizabeth / M26 cordon.
Winter Gem / M26 cordon.
Discovery / MM106 unsupported small fan/espalier.
Crawley Beauty / MM106 cordon (needs MM106 to boost vigour).
Reverend Wilks / M26 cordon.
Pinova / M26 cordon.
Saturn / M26 cordon.
Meridian / M26 cordon.
Winston / M26 unsupported small fan/espalier.

[Nicos]

Gosh FB....very interesting reading!
Thanks!