Apple trees - Variety and Rootstock

[Duronal]

Hello all

I would like to purchase two apple trees this winter to keep as LARGE potted plants. (the idea is that eventually when i have bought my first house i will plant them...)
Until then they will travel with me around Surrey as i continue to teach music.

I understand that it would be wise to pick complimenting varieties to aid pollination and also not to pick a root stock that is so vigorous that the tree struggles with its potted lifestyle (maybe M27 max?). My knowledge is limited and thus I am appealing for suggestions on type rootstock and variety.

Personally my favourite apple has to be either Bramley or the humble Granny Smith. I like apples to be crisp, (green) and sharp. - I have so many childhood memories of sitting and eating whole bramley apples. -
Needless to say i also love to cook apples; crumbles, pies, strudels, bake, stews and romatovs are just some ways i love to prepare them....

So please if anyone has apple experience and would like to share your knowledge i would be most grateful for any recommendations you would like to make.

(If anyone could tell me of any local variety near to my area woking / guildford OR my childhood haunts of the isle of wight or Norwich then this to would be of interest)

Kind regards

Duronal.

[FB.]

The commonly-available apple rootstocks cause them to reach roughly the following approximate sizes when mature after several or more years:

M27: 5ft
M9: 7ft
M26: 9ft
MM106: 11ft
MM111: 14ft
M25: 18ft

The variety grafted onto the rootstock also has some effect on size.
Vigorous varieties can increase the potential size by one or two rootstock classes. Weak growing varietes can reduce the size by one or two classes.

As the most extreme example of variety-specific vigour, I have a Bramley on M26 that is stronger than my D'Arcy Spice on MM111.


The growing conditions - the amount of water and nutrients - also influence the final size. Poor soil and low rainfall can reduce tree size. Good soil and adequate water (not too much!) can increase size.
A tree can be kept about two size classes smaller by pruning all new shoot growth back to 2-3 new buds from it's point of origin in mid-August.

For pots, M27 is best, but it may be too weak to survive in the garden without a lot of feeding.

I would look at acquiring some "cordons" on rootstock M26.
Cordons are trained as a single main stem, with small side branches that bear fruit. Summer pruning is carried out, to increase fruitfulness and keep the plant smaller. Yields are very high for the plant's size.
At a later time, you could plant these M26's in the garden (early September is best in my experience), you should also cease the summer pruning and remove fruit for one season. That will allow them to direct energy into becoming larger and eventually become small bushes about M9 size. They probably won't ever each M26's true potential because of their heavy pruning in their early years - but no great harm will be done.

Bramley has several drawbacks for growing as a restricted form.
It is quite strong growing, so may require heavy pruning. Heavy pruning of Bramley can delay or even prevent it fruiting.
Bramley produces some fruit buds at the tips of branches ("tip bearing"). Pruning can lose a lot of the fruit buds in the early years.
Bramley is also not suitable as a pollinator for other apples - it has a low pollen count (like having a low sperm count - apologies if people find that remark offensive).


If you want to grow a Bramley, consider it as part of a "family tree" where three or four varieties are grafted onto the one trunk. Each variety forms one main branch and the three/four varieties can pollinate each other (even if one has sterile pollen, the others can be pollen donors).
You won't be able to grow a "family tree" as a cordon shape.

FB

[Duronal]

Wow, thanks for the help.

Could you recommend a more suitable type of apple than a Bramley? I've read good things about the 'bountiful' variety, have you heard of this?

[FB.]

I haven't grown it, but I have been been tempted by Bountiful because it is reported to have strong resistance to powdery mildew, which is usually my biggest problem (mildew likes hot, dry areas). With this year being wet, mildew has been rare, but scab loves the wet years.
Scab and canker resistance is reputed to be average.
Bountiful is regarded as a cooker, but is also claimed to be acceptable as an eating apple.

James Grieve will offer you some sharpness - which you say you like.
It is also suitable for both cooking and eating and has good mildew resistance, with average scab resistance. Canker resistance is not so good.
Being of Scottish origin, James Grieve is tolerant of cooler summers and withstands frost at blossom time.

[Duronal]

Ok this sounds good. Do you know of any reputable nursary where i should start my search for a Grieve/Bountiful family tree. second thoughts would it make more sense to buy one of each type or two family trees?

Do you or anyone have any notes on the Norfolk Biffin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Biffin

It appears to be an old variety with some great food qualities....

[elizajay]

Look at the website for Keeper's Nursery near Maidstone. Habib gives advice by email and they have an open day on 5th October when you can taste lots of different apples. They only sell bare root in winter.

[FB.]

Ok this sounds good. Do you know of any reputable nursary where i should start my search for a Grieve/Bountiful family tree. second thoughts would it make more sense to buy one of each type or two family trees?

Do you or anyone have any notes on the Norfolk Biffin
Norfolk Biffin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It appears to be an old variety with some great food qualities....

If you're going for Grieve and Bountiful, I'd get them as cordons on rootstock M26 (which you can plant out in later years and allow to grow a bit larger). They should pollinate each other adequately.

As for the "Norfolk Biffins", you'll have to find a specialist nursery to supply it. It is not likely to be available as part of a family tree, since it is not in sufficient demand - I don't have one.....I don't know anyone who has one....and I have never seen one.....

[Duronal]

Righty oh -

i've found out that the norfolk biffin is availiable on a MM106 rootstock and has the following information

Norfolk Beefing Dual Cul & Des D 12 Self-sterile

Am i right in thinking that i should be able to use a Group C tree to pollinate? e.g

Bountiful Culinary C 9

[FB.]

The limited info that I have on the Norfolk "Biffin/Beefing" is contradictory.
One source says it's pollination group is B, another says group C and another says group D.
In any of those cases a group C pollinator (such as Bountiful/James Grieve) should be fine.
James grieve and Bountiful are reported to be excellent pollinators for other varieties.

The Norfolk Biffin/Beefing is very strong growing and on MM106 rootstock, it will not be happy to remain in a patio container for more than a year or two. It may well make 2-3ft of growth per year in the first couple of years.
I have Bramley (another strong-growing variety, like Biffin). My Bramley is grafted onto M26 (M26 is smaller than MM106) and it makes 2ft of growth per year. On MM106, I'd expect 2-3ft per year.

[Duronal]

Thank you so much FB for all your advice and help. I'll be ringing the nursary in the morning to try and 'charm' a biffin on M26 but i think i'll be out of luck

In which case i may be forced to go with the MM106 and find an enormous container. In this dept what do you think the minimum size should be? if needs be i could build a custom container.....


On a different note i have an apple tree at present in a container, it was rescued from a skip. When it was found it was in awful condition but after being replanted it produced a secondry sucker which was adopted as the main stem to avoid damage. It has produced apples this year which are deep red and have an extremley waxy coating. The flavour is definately not my thing nor the texture and this is what finally set me off on my romanticised apple hunt.

Do you know how to grow the pips from apples? I'm assuming time and patience in abundance are needed but it is something that intrigues me.


thankyou once again for your help

D

[FB.]

Norfolk Beefing, M27, M26 or M25 rootstock:

Clicky link

You'll have to wait until November or later to get a bare root tree.
Being bare-rooted, from my experience, it'll probably take most of the first year (2009 growing season) to re-grow the roots left behind at the nursery. It'll probably not grow much "above ground" until the 2010 growing season.

Personally, I would have left your salvaged apple tree in the skip. The rootstock is unknown and so is (was?) the variety grafted onto it.
It sounds as if you've let the rootstock grow, which - depending on the rootstock - may or may not produce edible apples.
If it's not the rootstock that's producing the apples, it might be that you have an edible apple, but the apples need weeks or even months of storage before they're edible. But maybe the apple you saved was always intended to be a decorative crab apple and not intended to be eaten?
Anyway, you say that yours are unpleasant, but......
Try eating a "Tydeman's Late" straight off the tree in October.
Then try a "Tydeman's late" in January.

Growing pips is easy. I have about a dozen pips growing from a variety of last year's apples. I plan to use them for some grafting experiments (long story for another time).

If the pips that you plant are from supermarket apples, the apples may be so old that some or all of the pips are dead. The best chance of growing pips at this time from supermarket apples is to buy some "seasonal" apples - Worcester Pearmain at present....Egremont Russet in a few weeks time...perhaps some Spartan too.
Plant the pips outdoors. They usually need a winter chill to activate them (although old-stock supermarket apples have already had a long chill period in the supermarket storage).

The pips that grow will have entirely random characteristics, depending on their parents and which genes were passed to the offspring.
They will vary as to their features: tall, short, fat, thin, leaf shape, disease susceptibility, fruit type and so on.
Many supermarket apples will have been pollinated by crab apples, so you'll probably get mostly small, bitter apples that could take anything from 3 - 10 years to fruit.

[Duronal]

HA that's unbelievable! my parents live on the isle of wight approx 20 mins from that nursary..........i'll give them a call and see if i can get someone to collect for me. Once again FB you've been a great help.

As for pips i used to live in a house in guildford that had an apple tree well over 100 years old. (believe it or not this was my student house!) i was planning to ask the current occupants if i could have an apple and go from there, you never know it could be good.

Thankyou

D

[Duronal]

Dear FB

I thought i'd let you know that my apple trees should be arriving soon. I've gone for YR1 Norfolk Beefing (norfolk) and Mary's apple (isle of wight) trees on M26 rootstocks. They were at a very reasonable price and should both provide dual purpose fruit and have complimentary pollination.

As for the reclaimed tree i'm going to try to use it as a grafting tree, and see what i can get to take on it.

Do you have any advice on what to plant the trees (soil mix) in when i transfer them to a pot?

many thanks for all your help.

D

[FB.]

I would plant in a 50/50 mix of general-purpose compost and ordinary soil.
I would also consider feeding a nitrogen-containing fertiliser a few times during the year, if they seem to be lacking in growth.
Too much feeding will make them straggly and grow too fast.
Cruel as it may sound, but I don't give much food to my apples. I want them to find their own and I find that less feeding gives more and better fruit - and at an earlier age.