Duronal's experimental Apple trees....(sorry FB!)

[Duronal]

First of all may i please thank FB (the resident apple expert) for all of their help in my previous post. FB has been instrumental with sourcing the 'right' apple tree for mr and i will be ordering soon.

However, all of this apple talk has prompted me to try and grow an apple tree...........from seed
I understand that the chances of producing a tasty apple are pretty remote but i'm going to try my luck and see how i go

I picked my apples from local trees in close proximity (within 10 metres) of other edible apple trees. Hopefully this will increase my chances of success and provide a hybrid that at least has a native parent in my area. One of these trees looked to be between 60 - 100 + years old. And the others seem to be younger varieties on smaller rootstocks.

i am guessing at the ages but the oldest tree has produced many younger trees around it. I'm also assuming that the oldest tree is the tallest one with the nobblist and weathered bark and poorly managed tree structure.

I will take some pictures of the apples for people to have a look at and perhaps you will be able to identify one for me because the varieties are completely unknown.

On another note something that may be possible is that i may be able to dig up some of the seedlings (max 8") that appear to have grown underneath the old apple tree but are struggling to survive ( i assume these are last years fallen fruit). If anyone could suggest a good time for this to be done then i would appreciate it.

Pictures will follow this post. Finally please wish me luck because i won't know what these apples are like for anything between 5 and 10 years.

Many thanks

D.

[BrideXIII]

good luck with that one

I did manage to grow an apple tree from pip a few years back, and it grew to about 8 inches high , but it was in the ground and the dog pee'd it to death.
if i recall it was a golden delicious from co-op.
I am almost tempted to join you and have another go.

[FB.]

There's nothing wrong with growing your own apple tree. Just as long as you appreciate that you can't guarantee what it'll turn out to be.
In fact, Duronal's Pippin has a kind of ring to it.

In later years, perhaps you'll want to get two known varieties and pollinate the flowers yourself. By keeping the flower cluster covered, then removing the pollen-bearing structures, then using the pollen from another apple flower to rub all over your chosen flower. At least you'll know who both the mother and father was.
A well-pollinated apple can have up to about 10 seeds. I seem to recall that less than about 5 seeds and they often drop from the tree prematurely.

I plan to do some amateur breeding of my own at some point.
I'll grow the pips in cordon form (or take grafts from the seedling and graft onto M27 rootstock to initiate early fruiting). If I grow as cordons, summer pruning and slightly drought-streesing them after a couple of years growth should encourage fruiting - perhaps a few fruits in year 3, although the fruit quality may well improve as the plant matures. It may also improve with storage. Some apples are best left to ripen for a couple of months after picking.

HTH
FB

[Duronal]

Wow FB. I'm very interested in learning how to graft plants do you have any advice?

I get the impression if i could be shown how it works first then the books may make more sense.

[BrideXIII]

Wow FB. I'm very interested in learning how to graft plants do you have any advice?

I get the impression if i could be shown how it works first then the books may make more sense.

just been reading for an hour about this myself, distinct lack of pics, but 'they' all say its quite easy, even found a couple of places that do the rootstocks as well.

would prefer to try it out first though before spending too much on rootstocks.

let us know how you get on.

[Duronal]

as promised here are my 'stock' apples.

the first photo is of apples from the newer (dwarf) trees and the second is the fallout from the old tree.

(i'm starting to get the impression that you must be a musician FB! your like me and always still awake at a late hour )

[FB.]

Wow FB. I'm very interested in learning how to graft plants do you have any advice?

I get the impression if i could be shown how it works first then the books may make more sense.

Quoted from Deacon's website:

....We use mostly a whip and tongue graft.
A very sharp knife is essential. Hold the rootstock with thumb on the bud at the 6” length. Cut about 1/2” below this and make a decisive flat cut to just above the 6” length. Select the scion and with thumb on the bud cut again 1/2” below, ending 1/2” above. Slightly cut into the newly cut wood to make the tongue – do this on the rootstock and to match it on the scion. When pushed together, no light should be seen between the union. Now bind with the self-destructing tape. Place thumb on the point just below the new union on the rootstock, pulling now with slight pressure on the tape, with it round the stock and completely over the union. When covered, hold the tape, in tension now, slightly away from the stock and put the unstretched end through the gap. This will now hold firm, because you will have relaxed the tension. Cut off excess tape if any, but leave at least 1/2” or so in case it pulls back.
Now cut off the scions, leaving two or three buds above the tape. Dip the end in the hot wax and plant your new graft quickly.....

Grow some apple pips and experiment by grafting them.
I have 10 Worcester pearmain pips sitting in front of me at this moment.....I plan to plant them tomorrow - to use for grafting experiments in 2010.
I have about a dozen assorted seedlings grown from pips from last year.......I'll be using them for grafting experiments in 2009.

[Duronal]

how are you planning to germinate your pips FB? I've read that planting in water and then transferring works well. Alternatively i guess i could just pop them into multipurpose and grit.

(any ideas on the photos above? we managed to post at exactly the same time)

[FB.]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to identify apples from their appearance, I'm afraid.



I haven't taken enough interest in growing pips to know the best way to do it, but I make a 50/50 mix of soil and compost, add plenty of water to make it sloppy, then mix the pips into it and put into a tray a couple of inches deep.
They'll sit outside for the winter, with occasional watering if necessary.

So long as the pips are planted shallow in moist soil, they'll probably be fine. Enough will germinate to give you plenty of seedlings.
I seem to find that only between a quarter and half of the pips survive the first growing season. Many pips don't germinate properly and many seedlings die in their early weeks of growth.

[Duronal]

And we have lift off!! I now have 7 seedlings coming through. It's so odd to see something that you planted over 6 months ago start to erupt from it's pot. What do you think FB am i in for 4 years of hard work and dissapointment or will i produce a wonder fruit? - i guess my first priority is to try ensure that the seedlings survive. Do you have any advice?

If they do survive i'm tempted to go and plant one of these trees in a remote wood near here and have a secret tree but i'm sure that it's against the law.......add to that the chance of the rabbits and the rest leaving it be and i think i'll just have to cart them around for the rest of time. i hope that i get lucky with my apple and will endevour to keep you informed of my progress.

Does anyone know how old do the trees need to be in order to produce scion wood?

Many Thanks for the invaluable advice FB.

D

P.S how's the Beefing? Mine are still dormant with little to no growth,

[FB.]

You might end up with some reasonable apple trees, but I doubt that they'll be anything special and they could take many, many years to give fruit, unless you encourage them with the correct pruning.
Not knowing both parents gives you no idea of what they'll turn out like.
If a crab apple was used as a pollinator (quite common), you'll end up with something that is half crab and not very pleasant to eat.
They may take 2-3 years to produce worthwhile growth that you can use for scions (grafts).
Planting one in a nearby wood will probably result in it's death. It takes a lot for a baby tree to establish against all the other trees and you just don't know what kind of disease resistance (or tolerance to your conditions) it will have.

I plan to cross my apples with each other in coming years - bagging the flowers until I'm ready to do the pollinating. Crosses will be made with known parents, to give more idea of the likely outcome and crosses will be made with specific objectives in mind.
Their first couple of years of trials for the seedlings will be hard on them; I will encourage or even inoculate diseases on them, to kill all but the toughest. I expect about 90% losses.
The survivors will then be grafted onto either a dwarf rootstock, or onto the tip of the branch of one of my other apples.
The whole process will take 5-6 years to get to fruiting.

FB
ps
Not much action with leaves/flowers on my fruit trees yet. I'm working on some "own root" apple trees, using some curious ideas. At present, I'm trying to produce own-root Bramley, Norfolk Beefing, Laxton Superb and one or two others.
Pulling out a few samples in recent weeks has shown some "own-root" growth, so I'm getting something right.

[Duronal]

i realise that all this is a huge long shot but i remain optimistic as the tree i selected fruit from was very tasty and just over the road there's church yard with 12 apple trees in. Hopefully a helpful insect has done the rounds in the area, i guess i'll get back to you in 3-5 years and let you know how it's going!