Unusual, Tasty, Beautiful Apple Tree?

[applenut]

Help making apple tree decisions, please. I have been trying to make this decision for at least 8 months now and have finally decided to just canvas for some informed opinions and go with that. (Thank you FB for all of your posts which have helped me get this far.) I will be planting one MM106 apple in the lawn/borders area of my garden and three other smaller trees will be espaliered into arches at the entrance to this part of the garden and then the entrance to the veg garden. The area is a south-facing gentle slope with slightly heavy soil (though of course I plan to dig in huge amounts of manure and compost) in western Hertfordshire. I am an organic gardener.

Although I generally like apples like say a Falstaff or a Red Pippen, I would like these trees to be more unusual flavours that I don’t have access to the rest of the year. I would like to have a little variation in the harvest times so it’s not just feast or famine. For the large tree I would like it be a nice looking tree that isn’t prone to weakness (or ugliness) so it could withstand my sons playing in it when it’s matured.

I come to you because of the varieties I am considering the Egremont Russet is the only flavour I have actually eaten. I know it’s impossible to guess what someone else might like, but at this point I am really happy to hear what someone else might like that they have had success with and just copy them.

This is my short list, though I am truly happy for any alternate suggestions. My one requirement is crispness—I can’t stand a mealy apple.

Egremont Russet
Winston
Adam’s Permain
Ashmead's Kernel
Rosemary Russet
Herefordshire russet
Kidd's Orange Red
George Cave
Chivers Delight
Lord Lambourne

Thank you for any and all advice!

[Flummery]

Well, I'd have to go for Egremont Russet. I love it - great with cheese and it also makes the world's best toffee apple!

[Tam]

"Sunset" is a very beautiful tree (it is grown as an ornamental by some) and the fruit is delicious. It is one of Cox's many offspring, but is a tree that gives few problems. My favourite taste in an apple is "Pitmaston Pineapple", which is an old variety, but is still available from some growers.

[FB.]

applenut

You post has so many things to answer that I don't know where to start with some suggestions.

Firstly, the main tree:

For most of the varieties that you suggest, I would be concerned that MM106 will not be vigorous enough to produce a strong enough tree to climb.
I think that you'll either need to use M25 rootstock, or, if you want to use MM106, you'll need to use very vigorous varieties - such as Bramley's Seedling, Blenheim Orange or perhaps Belle de Boskoop.

Bramley is very vigorous growing and also produces unusually thick, strong branches - great for a strong tree that people can climb.
My Bramley -like any apple tree- gets attacked by aphids, but it's large, tough leaves seem to resist the tendency towards unsightly curling into ugly shapes that is often seen with other apple varieties.
Bramley has decorative, large, very-pale-pink blossom.
Bramley is virtually useless as a pollen source for other apples.

I have a suspicion (but no proof) that Blenheim Orange and Belle de Boskoop are somehow related to Bramley. They are also big trees, but can be eaten as well as cooked. My Bramley grows very well in Cambs and is fairly disease resistant, but I can't comment on Blenheim or Boskoop.

Some other "vigorous" varieties produce long, thin branches that lack strength, so watch out for that.

Buy a "first-year maiden whip" for the main tree because you can choose the height at which the lower branches start. If you buy a two year old, it will probably have been pruned to form primary branches at about 3ft above ground - too low for a full standard.

[Flummery]

My russet is a step-over. Smaller yield but it goes along the edge of my veg plot in the garden. Looks lovely! I think it's on M9.

[FB.]

applenut

I've had a think about your question and if I were in your position.
Unfortunately, choosing apples is not just about flavour or disease resistance, but also about pollination partners, so that some sacrifices need to be made.

I would choose:
For the main tree:
Bramley's Seedling or Blenheim Orange, rootstock M25 (or MM106 if a 20ft+ tree could be a problem), buy a one-year maiden, to prune yourself, to get branches at the level that you want.

For the others:
James Grieve.
Crawley Beauty, rootstock MM106.
Court Pendu Plat, rootstock MM106 or M25.

Crawley Beauty is one or perhaps two size classes smaller than an average apple tree. It will need a fairly strong rootstock.
Court pendu Plat is two size classes smaller than an average apple tree, so will also need a strong rootstock.
Bramley is two size classes larger than an average apple tree.
Put the James Grieve in the least sunny spot of the three smaller one's - it's a hardy Scottish variety.


Or

For the main tree:

Bramley's Seedling or Blenheim Orange , Rootstock M25 or MM106.

For the others:
Discovery.
Egremont Russet.
Brownlees Russet.

Discovery, Egremont and Brownlees are one size class smaller than the average apple. Bramley is two size classes bigger. They should all cross-pollinate and also pollinate the Bramley.


.
.

[applenut]

Thank you so much for the replies Flummery, Tam and FB. I really appreciate the help! Thank you esp for the point about the M25. Obviously height isn't so much the consideration as the width of the canopy. That is just the advice I was looking for though--I had even been through google images trying to get an idea of just what the different rootstocks actually look like. So M25 it is on the big tree. I hadn't even considered the BO as I didn't want a cooker, but having just looked it up it does look promising. (I had read awhile back that Hugh Fearnly guy is crazy about the Orleans Reinette which apparently tastes much the same, not the he is THE apple authority or anything just interesting that's all.) It was one of your posts that originally interested me in the Ashmead's, FB, do you think it would have a place as one of the trees?
Again, thank you all.

[FB.]

Hertfordshire is not too far from me.
The largest apple trees in my area (presumably on seedling/M25 equivalent rootstock) reach about 15-20ft for the strong-growing varieties (Bramley) and about 10-15ft for average varieties. Older trees on MM106 reaach about 7-12ft, depending on the variety. It's the lack of rainfall here, that limits their growth.
You may want to consider using M25 rootstock for that reason.
Have a look around your local area. The biggest apple trees that you can find will be Bramley's on seedling rootstocks (M25 equivalent). You'll be able to judge how big yours might get - but don't forget that it will take 10-15 years to reach full size and may continue growing slowly until it dies at age 50-100 or older.

You could swap Ashmead's Kernel for the Brownlees Russet (both are late-eating russets) in the second of my suggested selections, but you'd be depriving yourself of the very decorative pink blossom of the Brownlees. I would also guess that the Ashmead may be less reliable and is also very prone to bitter pit.
Ashmead's Kernel would not pollinate well with the first group. that I suggested.

[applenut]

Ah, I see about the Brownlees. My husband keeps laughing at how I am agonizing over these decisions. I can't help it--I have longed for these trees and I don't want to make a bad choice! Thank you again, FB. You should write a book. You have a gift!

[applenut]

Hey perfecto! The Brownlees was developed just near my house, I'm in Kings Langley, it's from Hemel. Just the sort of thing I was looking for. Trying for English planting to be friendly to all the little fliers about. Hooray for the suggestion, FB!

[FB.]

Ah, I see about the Brownlees. My husband keeps laughing at how I am agonizing over these decisions. I can't help it--I have longed for these trees and I don't want to make a bad choice!

Spending time "agonising" will not be wasted time. If you get it right now, there will be less problems later.
I wish that I had spent more time researchng in my earlier apple years, rather than just buying semi-randomly because I liked apples. It might have saved me from having to learn many things the hard way - diseases and lack of vigour in dry areas being my main, unanticipated problems.

Thank you again, FB. You should write a book. You have a gift!

Write a book?
While it might sound like I know plenty about apples, I think that I still have much to learn.
I am planning to add some extra apples next year - either by grafting myself, or just buying maidens for about £10 each.
My new additions will be some to trial and some will be multiples of varieties that I have been growing for a while.

I expect that some of my newcomers will be failures, due to not tolerating the conditions here, but it will be a learning experience. I can always remove them or re-graft them, if I'm not happy with their performance.

The varieties that I don't already have that I'm planning to try - as cordons in the first instance:

Cockle Pippin (Surrey) - supposed to be very disease resistant. We'll see!

Golden Russet (New York, USA) - I have doubts about it's ability to withstand mildew in a no-spray environment, but otherwise seems a good variety.

Rosemary Russet (Middlesex) - seems to succeed in and around Cambs.

Red Devil (Kent) - very disease resistant but slightly later-fruiting offspring of one of our favourites: Discovery (Essex).

Choosing varieties that originated close to your location may be a good idea, since they must have been well-adapted to the local environment to have survived. Their place of origin often has a good environment for fruit ripening and is where their best tasting fruit will often be grown.
Plant a D'Arcy Spice or Discovery in a cool, wet, dull area and the fruits will be juicy, acid and uninspiring.
Plant them in the warm, dry, sunny areas (Such as Cambs) and the fruits are absolutely delicious, although often rather small.