Fruit Tree Arch - structural advise please

[FB.]

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[T-lady]

Hi Stormin'

I want to do the same thing with the three entrances to my veggie garden. We went to Barnsdale to look at Geoff Hamilton's fruit arches and, to be honest, the structures were relatively 'cheap 'n' nasty' metal arches - the strength is in the trees once they've grown in a bit.

So, I've bought metal arches from Gardman via my local garden centre. They've cost me about £20 each and I'm using two per entrance to get the depth of path I'm after. They seem perfectly sturdy enough for the purpose and look nice too.

Hope this helps ...

[Storming Norman]

Hi T-Lady

Thanks for the ideas. I will have to check this out in the local garden centres, but last time I looked there was nothing useful there. So I have had a look at these on the web. Some of the gardman arches are a little too small/short/narrow for my requirements but 2 of the wider/taller ones might do the trick.

I was coming to the conclusion that if I could find something that would help me get the shape I want [say after 5-10 years] then the trees could be on their own after that - although the structure they have at West Dean in Sussex is just fantastic; if it is going to cost so much then a permanent arch is rather too much of a luxury. Since I am using MM106 root stock the trees will be strong enough.

What types/varieties of trees are you putting on yours?

Having seen your arches close up do you think they could be removed safely without too much damage after they have served their purpose?

My arches are also going across the path to the vegetable patch - and will stand around 15 foot in front of the green house - so will camouflage it from a direct view from the house a little - which is what my old laburnum tree did once before it died of old age.

Ann

[T-lady]

Hi Ann

Your plan for the arches sounds lovely. Shame the laburnum died but aren't they just a nuisance when they drop in the Autumn!

I think it should be possible to remove the arches in time as the trees are tied into them rather than, say, with a honeysuckle which would twine around them. I've used the Gardman extra wide arch so it's about 4.5ft wide and plenty tall enough. I've only done one of the entrances so far - two more to go - but I'm ordering the rest of the fruit trees this week.

I've got a pear - Doyenne du Comice, apples Braeburn and James Grieve and a crab apple. I'm about to order 2 cider apples: Michelin and Court Pendu Plat, apples Saturn, Laxton's Superb and Bloody Ploughman and 3 pear trees: Beth, Conference and Invincible.

I've gone down the route of heritage and cider apples as I've already got two good cooking apples and two good eaters in the 'orchard' (back end of the garden) so I'm not looking for quantity of fruit necessarily but something with a bit of history and interest. Also, Saturn is supposed to be a really good apple for organic growers and I'm guessing the heritage ones should be too - they didn't have chemicals when some of these were introduced and they seem to have survived so far!

The root stocks are M26 which should be good for cordons / trained fruit - I hope. This is where I get sadly confused and a bit scared!

[FB.]

T-lady

I have been trialling Saturn in recent years. It is fairly resistant to mildew, but mine suffered very badly from scab and canker in 2008 - as bad, or worse than any of my other varieties. I live in a low-rainfall area, so with scab favouring wet areas, I dread to think how bad the scab and canker would be in those areas.
I would not recommend Saturn for unsprayed growing, unless you can tolerate a large number of scabby fruits. I can virtually guarantee that scab (and possibly canker) will eventually (after a few years) become a persistent and severe problem.

I understand that Saturn has been bred to incorporate a single dominant gene (termed Vf) that gives high resistance to scab. It seems that eventually, the scab fungus mutates and overcomes the resistance gene (a bit like MRSA bacteria overcoming antibiotics). I suspect that my Saturn has been attacked by Vf-resistant scab. Older apple varieties tend to have multiple genes for scab resistance, with each gene offereing a small amount of protection. However, it is very difficult for scab to overcome the resistance of multiple genes.

M26 is a suitable rootstock for cordons and other trained shapes. If the soil is poor, the stronger-growing MM106 may be necessary.
The strength of growth can depend on both the rootstock and the variety. Some varieties are very strong growers (such as Bramley and Laxton Superb) whereas other varieties are very weak growers (such as Court Pendu Plat).
The strongest growers will grow at least twice as much as the weakest.

For that reason, I have my Bramley on M26, whereas my Court Pendu Plat is on MM111 - and still the Bramley grows faster.

Be aware that your Court Pendu Plat will flower extremely late in the season. You may need to ensure a pollination partner. I use Crawley Beauty.

[T-lady]

Hey FB

Rats! I thought that Saturn was going to be a good one – both the Ken Muir catalogue and Rogers of Pickering are praising it for its scab resistance. Ah well, time to relook at it, thanks for the ‘heads-up’ on it!.

So how about this, my revised shopping list?

1. Bloody Ploughman (B)
2. Braeburn (C)
3. Court Pendu Plat (D)
4. James Grieve (B)
5. Tydeman's Late Orange (D)
6. Brown's (C)
7. Somerset Redstreak (B)

(6 and 7 are cider apples)

I’m planning to buy whips at £11.50 from RV Rogers – I suppose I could buy the 1 year cordons but they’re £20 – any comments? How difficult is the formative pruning (I don’t care about losing a year or two, already got apple trees so I’m not short of fruit)?

As with Ann they will be grown over apple arches on good Lincolnshire clay soil. The rootstock offered mainly is MM106 apart from the two I’ve bought cheaply from the supermarket – no idea what they’re on.

[SueA]

Hi Storming Norman,
Whatever you do don't get those flimsy metal arches which you screw together yourself, they usually cost anything from £10-£25 & unless you want to replace them every couple of years they'll be useless. I've used them as support for a grapevine & a climbing rose & after years of replacing them & repairing them I finally gave in & got some stronger wooden ones. The only problem is although they cost £38 each (Gardman brand) they're still not very strong & my O.H. managed to break one when he was trying to fix it in the ground! I'd make sure you get strong iron ones if possible.

[FB.]

T-lady

I suppose that at least Saturn will be resistant to most strains of scab and clearly some resistance will be better than none.

If you're using rootstock M26, woolly apple aphids (WAA) could be a problem. If the variety grafted onto M26 is frequently pruned (WAA like to feed on pruning wounds or new shoots) then canker-prone varieties could soon succumb to canker that is spread by the WAA - unless you spray.
I have a James Grieve on the WAA-resistant rootstock MM106 and despite no WAA attacks, it has still had considerable trouble with canker. I had to cut off one main branch and several side branches this year, to save it.
I have a Tydeman's Late Orange and it has good disease resistance. It is fairly vigorous and has a tendency to produce lots of long, thin branches. They need pruning back quite hard, so as not to droop.
My Court Pendu Plat also has fairly good disease resistance, but is a very slow grower. I have it on MM111 to increase it's vigour into line with my other varieties - they're mainly on M26 and MM106.

A few months ago, I wrote a topic in the fruity section called: "growing apples without sprays".
Have a read. You will find lots of info, ideas and things to be wary of.

If you're noy in a hurry for fruit, I would choose maiden whips. They usually establish very well and are cheap. It is also easier to shape them into what you want. Don't prune them until November 2009-March 2010 and winter-prune only each year, until the structure is complete. Then switch to summer pruning.
When winter-pruning, if you cut less than a quarter of the branch away, it will probably only sprout from one bud and re-grow what was lost.
If you cut back by about one-third, you will probably get two buds grow. The uppermost will try to continue in the direction of the branch, while the other will grow out at about 45' angle.
If you prune back by about half, you should get three buds grow. the lower two will grow outwards at 45', while the uppermost one will try to continue in the original direction.
Pruning back by between half and two-thirds will probably get you four buds growing.

Once the shape is completed (after a few years), switch to pruning in early August. Cut back all new side-shoots to between 1-4 new buds. Growth will stop and some of those buds will form fruit buds for the following year.

[T-lady]

F-B, you're a star! Thanks for the pruning advice and all of the stuff you'd put on your 'Growing without sprays' thread. My mind is at rest and I'm going to place my order now.

Incidentally, have you any experience of cider apples?

[FB.]

Although I like cider, I don't have any specific cider apples, nor do I know much about them - sorry.
Many apples can be used for cider - I've heard of Bramley and Ashmead's Kernel being used successfully as part of a mix. I also know of people literally just chucking all their windfalls into a cider mix - and that tasted very nice.

[Storming Norman]

A quick update on this post I started when I first joined this forum:

I had been in a quandry about this arch I wanted - and in the end decided against it.

So now I have had a small pergola constructed to fit the space by a local man - 4 joined wooden posts with roof beams 5' by 6' across my path set in metaposts and painted green to match the surrounding wood work. It looks good already and really sets off this area of the garden. The trees are planted 8'' from each post and have settled well.

I am told the posts will last 20-30 years so I am happy. The result is better that I ever expected. It's become a fruit area - with a blackcurrant & rhubarb close by and alpine strawberries at the base.

Ann