Compost for apple trees

[Sue]

Hi
I sent a query to a specialised fruit nursery about apple trees and the advice came back to only plant them with John Innes no 3. Not to add compost or manure to the planting hole. (I'm on heavy clay)
I've planted my other fruit trees mixing home made compost into the soil and these seem to be OK.
Is this right?
Sue

[FB.]

Home-made compost is pure organic material and very strong stuff. So strong that it can damage or even kill the roots.
Shop-bought composts are a mixture of many things, which may include: compost, topsoil, sand, peat and chemical additives. The different compost numbers indicate the various recipe mixtures.
Home-made compost is too strong unless mixed with one part compost to two parts topsoil.
With shop-bought compost, I like to use one part compost to one part topsoil.

[Two_Sheds]

Home-made compost is ...very strong stuff. So strong that it can damage or even kill the roots..

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[Two_Sheds]

I would use JI No.3 if you're planting in pots.

otherwise, just plant into your soil. Then mulch every spring with well-rotted garden compost.

It works for me. My compost has never killed anything.

[chrispy]

I've just planted a plum recently, and i put some john innes in the hole, my soil is quite heavy and i like to add something, purely as a conditioner, but i have never had any problems with or without, its just a personal preference, although i allways mulch with compost in the spring...:0)

[FB.]

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It'll drastically change the soil pH to the point where not much can grow until the compost has mellowed.
After a while, the pH will move back to normal and the plants can put on a good burst of growth. - if the pH change hasn't killed them.

[evie451]

eeeekkk i am really worried now! i am a newbie and sorry if there is a giant thread on compost somewhere but i have my own compost for the first time this year and i have been using it to sort of bulk out your shop bought compost and adding a wee bit of topsoil or maure depending on what the plant is, i have also mulched stuff with it, including pots and the plants seem to be coming up alright but! this has got me concerned.

I have used it for all sorts of stuff will i have problems?

[FB.]

Spreading "neat" compost on the surface (as a mulch) is OK as it'll take months to fully penetrate into the ground and often "scorches" any weeds that it comes in contact with - any green shoots that it touches may go yellow and die (but they often re-grow after a few weeks).

If the plants are coming up OK, don't worry about it. Maybe you got the "blend" just right. It would depend on the kind of things that went into your compost and their proportions.
You may find that the worms will distribute the compost around, so it won't end up as concentrated by the time plants get growing.

But my experiences lead me to use shop-bought compost mixed with an equal amount of soil (1:1) and home-made compost mixed with twice it's amount of soil (1:2).

I also find that seedlings grown in pots establish more quickly if they have been grown in a less concentrated compost mixture (1:1 or 1:2 as above). I think that it encourages the roots to search more actively, rather than the roots getting "addicted" to a nearby rich food source (which they don't get once they're planted out).

[evie451]

oh thanks FB, i think i might have been using roughly your mix by accident! i included quite a bit of sawdust out of the hamster cages so i thought my compost might have been on the acid side so i hedged my bets with the mixture.....I hope my blueberries like it though....

[kentvegplot]

It'll drastically change the soil pH to the point where not much can grow until the compost has mellowed.
After a while, the pH will move back to normal and the plants can put on a good burst of growth. - if the pH change hasn't killed them.

I'm not an expert, but I too am puzzled by your comments. I understood that it is really quite difficult to change a soil pH, because it is largely goverend by the underlying rock. As far as I can see from other sources, there is no risk in using home made compost as long as it is nice and broken down. I agree there's a problem with things like fresh horse manure, but there are no warnings against using our own compost.

Can you explain a bit further?

[FB.]

If you dig a hole and fill it with compost, you will be radically changing the soil conditions within the hole - around the roots of whatever you have just planted.
Roots don't like to move from compost into topsoil, due to the lower nutrient content of the topsoil. Therefore, plants with too much compost (i.e. filled the planting hole) may end up with restricted root systems and be drought-susceptible. I find that weaker compost mixtures (1:1 or 1:2) and periodic feeding from above (mulching/fertiliser) gives better root growth.
In dry weather, the compost seems to dry faster than many soils, so you end up with a dry rootball; even though the surrounding soil is moist, the compost has gone "airy" and dried out underneath the ground.
Home made compost is strong stuff and has a tendency to drop the pH (acidic) and can "acid burn" the roots or shoots. The same is true for manures. Many plants will get over it, but at least for a while, it may do more harm than good.
Additionally, too many nutrients and too vigorous growth ends up in lots of long growths that lack structural strength - with trees, you can end up with branches that bend or break in later years. With older trees, it also encourages shoot and leaf growth and reduces fruitfulness for teh following season.
I find that reduced feeding and watering (but not to the point of starvation/drought) is very beneficial to fruit yield and fruit quality the following year. If I want growth, I feed them with lots of nitrogen and give plenty of water.

These are just my experiences, which may be influenced by the climate here (warm, breezy, low rainfall, fairly sandy soil and few frosts)

[Sue]

Hi
That's all really interesting and useful. When planting trees, I've been digging a big hole to loosen all the soil and have then mixed in compost with that so it's distributed through. After planting and treading in I've been mulching with my compost.
I can, with difficulty get some John Innes 3 but have no car, and it's very heavy to drag up to allotment by bus which is why I asked - otherwise it's £10 delivery (!)
best wishes
Sue