Bramley's

[SuzzieP]

Hi guy's and gal's!
went mad and bought a Bramley yesterday from a local garden centre, have to say it was a bit of an impulse buy! I have no idea as to what type of root stock it is and the centre was not much help in that respect, is there any way to identify it?

Also having read, (since I bought it!!), that at least two other types of apple tree are required for pollination I am now a little worried. As far as I am aware there are no other trees around, except for two spur trees that I have in the garden. These are of the same type, ie Red and Golden Spur's, and I know that they are self-fertile. So my question is this; Are they any good to pollinate the Bramley??

Suzie

[chrispy]

Suzie, can get loads of info on Bramley's and the list of pollinators is quite long, but cant find any info on your Red/Golden spur!!
Have any of your neighbours got apple trees?, as there is a strong chance that one of these could well be a pollinator.
Pollination groups are generally split in to Different flowering periods. The RHS has got a Bramley as a group3, this can be pollinated by another group 3, or with sufficient overlap, groups 2 and 4.
With the number of apples that are group 2, 3, or 4, then there is a strong chance there are a few nearby.

hope that helps......i think i've just confused myself.......going for a lay down now

[bluemoon]

We had an old one in our last garden, it was huge and produced loads of fruit every year, even though we didn't have any pollinators in our garden. If you are in an area with other housing there are usually enough apple-trees in the area to pollinate whatever you have. Even in rural settings I'm told they are often OK on their own as woodland often has crab-apples which can do the job.

[FB.]

Suzie

If you can take a few pictures of the graft join from a couple of directions, I might be able to identify the rootstock from how the graft looks.
A picture of the overall tree could also be helpful.
In any case, it will probably be either MM106 or M26. Normally, the final height is considered to be about 10ft on MM106 and 7ft on M26, but Bramley will be larger; probably 15ft on MM106 and 10ft on M26 - depending on pruning.
If you want it to become a very large tree, then plant it with the graft at least six inches below the ground and the Bramley will reject the rootstock and grow it's own roots - and turn into a 20ft+ tree. If you do that, it will be slow to fruit, though.

When you say "Red spur" and "Golden spur", do you mean Red delicious and Golden delicious?
If so, then Golden Delicious should be a very good pollinator for Bramley. Only one tree is needed to pollinate the Bramley, but they recommend two pollinators because the one that pollinates the Bramley also needs a pollinator because Bramley's pollen is sterile. A self-fertile tree will pollinate itself and Bramley. However, I was not aware that Golden Delicious was reliably self-fertile.
But if you're getting apples at the moment, then you will get apples from your Bramley - although Bramley can be slow to come into the flowering and fruiting stages.

[SuzzieP]

Thanks for the replies peeps!
I really couldnt be sure about other trees in the area, our road is a little strange in that the top half is residential and the bottom half commercial, (definatly no trees down there). Also due to Jock Scott Prescott ordering every little bit of land to be built on we have had massive growth round here of flats Again no trees. The flat building has of course stopped for the time being due to the economy, although I know it will resart when things begin to pick up.

Not sure where to go with this, may plant the bramley down at my parents, (there are three apple trees in their garden), and re-think the apple strategy for this garden!

The garden is not that big so if the Bramley is going to grow that big then maybe its not the right tree. However it is mentioned that this depends on rootstock and pruning. Ill take some pictures later and post so hopefully it can be identified. As for pruning, tips please! I was thinking of trying to make it an espalier, would this be possible?

As for the two trees I have, they are these:-
3 Midget Fruit Tree Collection - J Parker Dutch Bulbs

[FB.]

The potted fruit trees should be OK as pollinators for Bramley, which is easily pollinated because of it's mid-season flowering, meaning that early, mid and late flowering apples have a chance of pollinating the Bramley.

Bramley is one of the strongest-growing apples and is reluctant to reach the fruiting stage. It has a partial tip-bearing nature, which complicates pruning.
Winter pruning of the tips will cost you at least half of your fruit. Not pruning will allow it to become a huge, out-of-control tree. Summer (mid-July) pruning will control vigour and encourage fruit bud formation for the next season.
Reduce the amount of feeding and watering, to keep vigour under control.

Growing as an espalier or fan would be fine and is perhaps the best way to grow a Bramley in a restricted space, but if it has already been shaped as a bush, then the work required to train it into a flat shape could be considerable.

[SuzzieP]

Okedoke as promised heres the art!







Hopefully the tree can be identified from the first two pictures, the third is a shot of the garden and the plan was to train it along the fence.

Whats the verdict?

[FB.]

No guarantee, but it looks most like MM106, which is a very common rootstock for garden apples.

Another thing that backs up the thoughts of MM106 is that the trunk has been cut at about 3.5ft above ground.
That's the height I'd expect for a half-standard on MM106, with a vigorous variety (such as Bramely).

The smaller M26 rootstock is usually pruned at 2.5ft, with the intention of it becoming a bush, which doesn't appear to be the height that yours has been pruned.

The lack of branches in the lower 3ft may be a problem for an espalier/fan, unless you don't mind the lowest branches starting at 3-4ft above ground - as they do now. At a later time, you may be able to graft some lower branches into useful positions.

When you come to plant it, I recommend that you do a scary - but beneficial - thing to it; untangle any roots that are circling the inner part of the pot and then crumble away the outermost inch of the compost around the rootball. Don't fret about the breakage of some of the roots.
With container-grown plants, breaking up the outer part of the rootball will help to encourage faster establishment and better rooting. Keep it well watered for the first season or two (one watering can, once a week).

[SuzzieP]

Thanks FB, interesting reading! Grafting anything to anything may be a little beyond my capability and certainly something that wouldnt happen in the short term.

Would it be worth going with plan B, planting this tree at my parents place and finding another that waould be more suitable for this garden?

[FB.]

Would it be worth going with plan B, planting this tree at my parents place and finding another that waould be more suitable for this garden?

If you can tolerate the lowest branches of an espalier starting halfway up your fence - 3.5ft above ground - then stick with it.
Bear in mind that espalier-trained apple trees cost a lot of money. Training one yourself is a fraction of the cost.
If the branches can be bent into a nearly flat shape, then it can be made into an espalier. Badly positioned branches would be best removed or cut back to short lengths (to form fruit spurs in later years) during winter pruning.
Next winter, existing branches can be cut back and the new shoots that arise from the ends of the cut branches can be trained into position while they're green and soft.

[teakdesk]

At a later time, you may be able to graft some lower branches into useful positions.

FB, thanks for that comment... my two brain cells never thought of that solution to an espalier !!! Are there any downsides to doing that - such as the tree growing a bit taller or anything else ?

I've a young plum tree that lost its main stem while in a pot due to wind blowing it over; I'm trying to train a branch upwards as its replacement and wondered how I could restore its shape... definately food for thought... presumably I could even use a branch from another older tree to create a family tree ?



PS, sorry to hijack your thread Suzzie

[FB.]

The downsides are minimal to none.

One downside is that a bodged graft may get infected. Secondly, the graft needs to be done so that it will be strong enough.

But considering that "family trees" have one branch of each of three varieties, but still manage to hold together, there should be no major problem with adding branches to an espalier. Just make sure that you read-up on grafting beforehand and don't graft anything too large, unless you're prepared to support it for several years.
I would suggest not using grafts that are older than two years and not more than 1ft long.
By angling the new graft slightly upwards and with a bit of "nicking" and "notching", you may be able to prevent the other (higher) branches from dominating and dwarfing the new graft, so that the new graft can grow more quickly. Higher branches grow faster than lower ones, unless you "nick" or "notch" to disrupt hormone flow through the tree.

[teakdesk]

Cheers FB


Hijack over, Suzzie !

[SuzzieP]

Thread ressurection!

Can anyone confirm if the Bramley is a tip or spur fruit bearer? Have read that espalier's are only suitable for spur bearing tree's. If this is the case would a fan be better??

Ta!