Still ok to buy fruit trees/bushes?

[chris]

Thanks for the answers. I think leaving whatever tree to grow 12ft would probably be too large, for the 4 block layout i'd like really. given that I've read I'd need to leave 2m between them? Ideally, I'd like them as far back as possible in the apex of the garden.

Watering wise, i'm going to be installing auto watering systems in my veg garden to make sure they'll be able to get water - so I'd not have an issue extending it into the fruit part of it, but also like the idea of planting a pipe next to the tree to be able to diredtly water the roots. I'm not on a water meter, so that does help.

Cordons, i'd only planned for apples, so I could perhaps have 2 varieties (I still am not sure which to go for yet, but I've got a good veg book that was free with my subscription - which lists loads of them).

I may be biting off more than I can chew, as I've a lot of shrubs to clear first! Thankfully, I've next week off, so it depends on how much prep I can get done first!

[FB.]

I would be amazed if you don't get enough rain in the West.

If you install irrigation for fruit trees, they will never grow deep roots and will probably grow a one-sided root system towards the water source.
Should the watering system fail during hot weather (or perhaps a pipe get blocked), the trees will suffer severe drought stress and possibly death.

If you get a storm, their shallow and one-sided root system could be uprooted.

Also, if they are heavily watered, they will grow much faster and ultimately much larger when mature (and be less inclined to fruit at a young age).

[BUFFS]

100% right there FB,you have got the points to consider spot on,its what makes this site so good,the amount of experience out there.

[Francey66]

Fruit trees

Hi all will I have to stake my fruit trees? if you look at my garden pics you can see what I bought

thanks Paul

[FB.]

If they are "one-year-old maidens", they usually won't need staking, unless on very dwarfing rootstocks that would need a permanent stake.

If they are 2-4 year old "bushes", they might need staking for a couple of years, but in an enclosed garden, it may be calm enough to not make them sway in the wind.

If they are 2-4 year old half-standard or standard, then staking would be desirable for a couple of years, due to the lack of roots, but heavy topweight.

[chris]

OK, I've had to re-think my plans a bit, as I won't be able to get the garden level by the time I'd like, or in time to be able to still buy them.

So now i'm thinking of getting a few cordons - I dont know, say between 4 and 6? I'll probably plant them in a row, on a south-east facing wall.

couple more queries though!

Why is it recommended to plant cordons at a 45 degree angle?

Variety wise, I was looking at James Grieve, Blenhiem Orange, and then maybe Sunset (alternative to cox - supposedly trouble free?) and Tydemans Early Worcester -- if I can find anywhere to get these from that is. -- How are these suited to my area?

I've seen some blueberry/Red currant/other soft fruit canes in B&Q - although I've never heard of the names of the varieties.. not that keen on using them, as I don't know the history - and knowing B&Q they're in it for the money only, so won't care/be able to give me in depth info about them.

If i did decide to get some of the other fruit trees - and planted them in the garden as is now, do they transplant well? Next year, I could level the garden out, or later on in a few months time.. I guess it'd be a long heeling in ? If the trees were in fruit I'd not move them, but if I did move them, would this cause them any stress?

Thanks in advance.

[FB.]

Planting at an angle slows the sapflow, which makes the branches less vigorous and more fruitful.
Make sure that the graft of a cordon is uppermost, so as to avoid the risk of the graft breaking off downwards under the weight.

James Greive and Sunset are notorious for canker.

Blenheim Orange is extremely vigorous and is capable of overriding dwarf rootstocks.
It also doesn't like to form many branches (or rather; it grows its branches to be about 3ft apart and not the six inches apart you'd want in a cordon), plus its partial-tip-bearing habit will complicate pruning.
Blenheim only has slight resistance to scab and canker - it can be troubled by canker and scab in very wet areas.

You'd probably be better off with varieties that originate in your area, since they will do well there.

[chris]

Ahh I see what you mean now..

What does grafting mean? and rootstock? Are rootstocks bits of trees that grow into the roots (that are the limiting factor) - and then they somehow join a bit of a young tree onto the rootstock?

Thanks again FB, you're extremely helpful to me (and from reading around the rest of the forum users!) do you run a nursery or something?

[FB.]

No, I don't run a nursery, but sometimes I think about starting one.

I do it as a hobby (and I'm a scientist, so I am curious).

Grafting is where you join two different plants together.

Rootstocks are a specific varieties of apple tree that are grown for their excellent rooting qualities, disease resistance, tolerance to certain climates, or their final size (small, medium, large).
Rootstocks often produce crab apples, if not grafted.

You would take your piece of rootstock, cut it to just six inches above ground, then join a twig onto it, from a more desirable variety and it will have a good set of roots and good fruit.

Here's a picture of a graft that I did on 26/01/2010, which was then left on a sunny window, in the house, as an experiment. Normally, you'd leave the newly grafted tree outside. It's overall height at the moment is about 1ft (30cm), with a diameter of 0.25 inches (6mm) at the point of the graft.
6mm diameter is about the minimum that will survive grafing.
The freshly-healed graft is circled in red. I only removed the grafting tape a few days ago.
The top part is last year's growth of a twig from a D'Arcy Spice (an apple that does very well in my area).
The roots are from a random apple pip that I planted a couple of years ago.
I could have used a proper rootstock (e.g. M26, MM106 etc), if I had chosen to.

[FB.]

Here's another picture, showing it in it's six-inch-diamter pot..
You can see that the "rootstock" is sprouting shoots of it's own, immediately below the graft.

It is common for "pruned" trees to sprout leaves early in the season and the rootstock is leafing-out before the D'Arcy Spice variety on the top.

The growth below the graft line may be left this season, but pruned off next winter to leave just the D'Arcy Spice part to grow into a tree. The growth below the graft will probably produce crab apples, which is not what I want; I want D'Arcy Spice apples, which can only be produced by the part that I grafted on the top.

[FB.]

...and here's a picture of a tree a few years after grafting.
You can see the lumpy bit, where the roots and the fruiting variety were joined.
I believe this is a picture of my M26 rootstocked "Meridian" apple, growing as an upright cordon (sometimes called minarettes).
Another "lumpy" graft is visible in the background on another M26 rootstock.
Some rootstocks (especially the dwarfs - M27, M9, M26) tend to produce "lumpy" grafts, while other rootstocks produce barely-noticeably graft marks. Some people reckon that it is the lumpy graft that interferes with sapflow between the roots and shoots, so tend to dwarf the trees as a result.

[chris]

Ah.. I wondered what method was used to graft - tape I see.. thanks

I had a nose at a garden centre today, loads of different types of apples (inc james grieve, bramley, and a newton one or somthing) - spoke to a guy who worked there, wasn't that happy with his answer (yes, we choose these trees as they grow really well here without much disease effecting them) - from your replies, and other posts I thought better of just buying them.

So then some chap from Ian Sturrock & Sons (Welsh Fruit Trees Online Shop) called me back from an earlier call before I popped out - explained where I was, etc - and man he was so helpful. He explained that he supplies Caerphilly County Council (where I live) with apple trees, so can recommend good growers - and some that can hold onto apples in windy conditions - I live 1/2 up a mountain.

He also had some odds and sods in a polytunnel that are suited to south wales' climate - said if I couldn't find owt i like on the site - give him a buzz and he'd pop down and have a look.

I've yet to order, but I think I'm going to settle with a couple of the following (they're on M26's)

- Nant Gwrtheryn (sounds cool, the history behind it - almost completely wiped out)
- Trwyn Mochyn - Anglesey Pugs Snout (keeps well after picked)
- Monmouth Beauty (local to me)
- St Cecilia (apparently is really nice)

Plum wise, some rare plum he stocks *shrug* no idea about that, it's not on a pixie rootstock though, as he said the fruit comes out "pixie" too? - it's called Denbigh
Plum - hasn't been grown/sold for 100 years or something like that.

Pear wise - Snowdon Queen - which is partially self fertile (not sure really what that means, do I need to go around with a brush?) - on a Quince A rootstock. Apparantly that'll grow really well in our wet, cold and awful conditions here.

I've also bought Dwarf Apricot tree - currently in my garage (didn't want to leave it outside, the chap at the garden centre said it needs protecting. I don't have any fleece - so it's by a window in the garage!). Then I got some thornless Blackberry & Rasberry Canes [Question; can I split the root system of these? - so I can go from 2 plants to 4? - to interlace them? -- save myself another £12 ] I choose canes with canes coming up in opposite corners, with 2 or more canes from these corners.

Soil being delivered tomorrow (finally!) so I can finally start sorting the garden out.

[chris]

Yeah, i noticed the graft joins on the trees in the garden centre, I gathered that's what they were. Pretty cool stuff really!

[FB.]

Well, I know little or nothing about the varieties that have been suggested.
But that's probably a good thing. It probably means that far from being "mainstream" varieties, they should be varieties that are well-adapted for your climate. But take them to other parts of the UK and they probably won't like it!
The D'Arcy Spice that I mentioned earlier is a variety that grows very well in East Anglia, but often gives poor results elsewhere.
I would go with what the Ian Sturrock & Sons recommends. He probably knows his stuff, if he can shortlist such unknown varieties.

[chris]

Thanks FB, that's what i was thinking too. He's based in North Wales, so at least has a similar climate..