Query mainly for FB ..

[shirlthegirl43]

We have three apple trees in our garden which produce large crops every year. Sadly, the wind usually comes along and blows them all down before they are ripe enough to pick. Last year, we took immature apples to an identification day and we were informed that they are most likely to be old varieties of crab apple. They told us what purpose they would have served but I was so stressed by all the wasps in the tent that I have forgotten what we were told Madmax was there but as he thought I was paying attention (and he isn't a big gardening person) he took no notice at all.

Are you able to jog my memory as to why these apples would be grown? I think there was a reference to the good rooting ability of the trees (one in particular sends up 'runners' or 'suckers' when any of its roots are exposed.

The fruits are not what I would recognise as crab apple sized - they are bigger than a golf ball but smaller than tennis ball and show signs of having a good flavour if they were able to stay on the darned trees!

Basically, I am wondering if I should dig them out and plant something that will give us a proper harvest.

[gojiberry]

Seems strange that you would have 3 trees of the same variety Shirl. I know that crab apples were often planted as pollinators but then you would not have ended up with 3. Could they have been grown for cider? If you arent getting a crop from them then maybe its time to replace with some new ones.

Ian

[shirlthegirl43]

They are all different, sorry I didn't make that clear

[FB.]

It's possible that they are rootstocks, where the top of the tree died and the roots grew themselves some new leaves and eventually became a tree.

It is also possible that they were grown specifically to be used as rootstocks.
Perhaps the "suckers" could be easily persuaded to grow, which could then be cut from the main tree to start a new tree (grafted with your favourite variety).
There are some old varieties from your area that will root from cuttings (most apples are very difficult to grow from cuttings) and those that rooted easily from cuttings were useful to create an orchard of similar-size trees (because they all had the same root, rather than seedling root which was much more variable).
Regarding them possibly being used for rootstocks in the past.....
Do they have patches on the bark of the twigs and branches with numerous maggot-sized pinkish or woody projections? These would be a sign of primitive roots (which will quickly root if you take a a cutting)

The last explanation I can think of at the moment would be that they were used as pollinators. Crab apples are often used in commercial orchards.

[FB.]

Are the trees of different sizes?
Was someone using them as part of a nursery stock for growing a selection of small, medium or large trees?

I have several types of rootstocks of my own (M9, M26, MM106, MM111, M25), which, when a bit larger, will be able to produce further rootstocks for my own grafting.
M9 is an ancient rootstock and it is the most likely to send up suckers, but they need to be quite large before they can withstand separation from the mother tree.
MM106 seems to have reasonable success from cuttings.

I suppose that if I moved away, someone else might not realise that they're ungrafted and so they leave the rootstocks and hope to get edible fruit.

[shirlthegirl43]

I suppose the trees are similar size though the fruits look quite different. None of them are classic orchard-style though - rather made up of lots of trunks like a stand of willows (if you understand me). You may be right about the rootstock thing. There is only one other apple tree close by so the pollinator idea would seem irrelevant.

I have often wondered about the history of the trees as the house is called 'Llwyn Afal' which apparently translates to apple grove.

[FB.]

I suppose the trees are similar size though the fruits look quite different. None of them are classic orchard-style though - rather made up of lots of trunks like a stand of willows (if you understand me). You may be right about the rootstock thing. There is only one other apple tree close by so the pollinator idea would seem irrelevant.

I have often wondered about the history of the trees as the house is called 'Llwyn Afal' which apparently translates to apple grove.

The highlighted part is the giveaway.
When you said "trees", it implied a single trunk.
Had you said "multi-stemmed bushes" I would have nailed it immediately.

Your trees were formerly used for rootstocks, in what were called "stoolbeds".

Every year, rootstocks are cut to the ground, to encourage ever-more regrowth from multiple shoots out of the ground.
Those regrowths would then have fine soil/sand/sawdust piled up them as they grew, which would encourage the soft shoots to grow roots higher-and-higher (since they will want their uppermost roots about half-inch below ground).
These stems with roots would then be cut off (down to the ground) at the end of the season and grafted with a fruiting variety of apple tree.
The cut-back stems would grow again the next season.

In a few days time, I'll try to take some pics of freshly-cut MM106 rootstocks produced in exactly that way.

[solway cropper]

Fascinating stuff FB. There is a wild plum near here which is basically a large clump of suckers of varying size and all the larger ones seems to carry fruit which is delicious. Would it be worth digging up a rooted sucker and attempting to train it into a 'proper' tree?

[shirlthegirl43]

Thanks for that FB. What would your suggestion be for their treatment now? I know where there is an old orchard which I could possibly take bits of trees to graft if it is worth having a go.

One of the 'trees' is in the middle of the chook run and there are about four good shoots coming up on a root that has been exposed by the girls scratching about. I guess I better put a bit of fence round it and earth them up

[FB.]

Plums are notorious for "suckering". You should be able to dig up some suckers and grow them into new trees, although if the tree they came from is grafted, it will not produce the same fruit unless you graft a twig from the top of the tree onto the root sucker.

You could also use the suckers to produce some plum trees of your own, and graft them with various varieties scrounged from the Grapevine members.

Bear in mind that the suckers that you plan to make use of will eventually produce just as many suckers as the tree that they came from. Be prepared to deal with them.
Cutting them down to the ground just makes them come back. You need to dig down to where a sucker attached to the root to remove it.

[FB.]

Shirl

The best and easiest-rooting shoots are those produced that season.
I'd suggest cutting those four "suckers" down to near the ground and then pile soil around them as they re-grow during 2010.
In the autumn, scrape away the soil and see if they have roots.

As for what to do with your trees?.......
I don't know.

If they didn't have some "history" attached to them, I'd just get rid of them and replace with something more useful.
But if they came from the propagating area of an old orchard, it puts a different perspective on it that makes them possibly worth keeping.

I would investigate more into the old nursery and see if you can find out what your "rootstocks" actually are.
There are a few of the old rootstocks from 100+ years ago (M1-M16) that I'd love to get my hands on, but many of them are now almost extinct.

[shirlthegirl43]

I would investigate more into the old nursery and see if you can find out what your "rootstocks" actually are.
There are a few of the old rootstocks from 100+ years ago (M1-M16) that I'd love to get my hands on, but many of them are now almost extinct.

Thank you again FB. The orchard I know is 7 miles from our garden so I don't know if our rootstocks would have been used there. I hate to be a pain but how would I go about finding out what the rootstocks are? None of the other gardens in our road have any apple trees as far as I am aware but the original bit of our terraced cottage is at least 160 years old.