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  • #16
    There is a mention of the dwarfing Paradise & Doucin on the 15th Century for example. Bauhin 1598, describes his grafting onto a extreme dwarfing rootstock , a form of Paradise. (there were many Paradise typesit would seem so it should not be assumed they are just a single rootstock)

    These are both well into the Mini Ice ages and definatly "the past" by some 5-600 years, so your hgypothisis does not hold IMHO.

    However, I would suggest that people in earlier times did depend on sucessful growth of fruit & other crops and their care was more intensive than anything that we tend to offer ours, it was a matter of life and death for most agrarian people. We have replaced manual care with machinery & chemicals to do the jobs that would have taken many man hours. We then plonk a tree in the ground & think it will be fine as it is natural for it just to grow, a reading of old texts will often show intense care of trees, dwarfing, for example being dug up root pruned as well as common pruning, hands on clearing of pests is often performed. If we take Victorian gardens the work load was massive to produce fruit particularly out of season fruit (and veg) the cost in modern terms can be several thousands for a pineapple for example. Head Gardeners were sought after and their knowledge incredible. For example a failing tree might have a bridge graft made to ensure sap reached around the bark breech.

    Seedling piles were made and used as rootstock, in many cases, but were also the source of many of our cultivars today.

    I'm still an avocate of own root trees as potentially the longest survival prospects, if neglected, but history gives us a very clear insight that in cared for situation grafted trees on specific rootstock have been common for 100s of years in europe. But they also point to intense care in all the cases I've read thus far.

    I still feel in your area I'd be very tempted to go along the seedling root as the method of survival of the fittest seems appropriate where the common rootstocks struggle.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mell View Post
      Bauhin 1598, describes his grafting onto a extreme dwarfing rootstock , a form of Paradise. (there were many Paradise typesit would seem so it should not be assumed they are just a single rootstock)

      These are both well into the Mini Ice ages and definatly "the past" by some 5-600 years, so your hgypothisis does not hold IMHO.
      One thing to consider is that the Paradise root would have had to survive as a seedling - a natural selection process in the climate of the day.
      I must confess that M9 (reportedly related to Paradise) is trouble-free on my soil, apart from the fact that it lacks vigour!

      With the M and MM rootstocks being only 100 years old or less, they were selected in a different time period to Paradise. The M and MM hybrids may also have been selected with commercial orchards, specific locations (e.g. East Malling, Kent) and at least basic copper/sulphur sprays in mind (such sprays have been available for a bit over 100 years).

      From what I've seen, M25 grows much better in Kent than anywhere else.

      Going back to M9 (and M26) -in my experience, it is relatively early to go dormant and relatively late to flower in spring. On the other hand, we're two weeks from Christmas and I still have some M25's in full leaf (well, half the leaves are now dead!), despite weeks of freezing temperatures. Being in full leaf, with full sapflow, can't be good for deep freeze conditions, where ice crystals form within the plant cells or sapflow system and burst them like frozen water pipes!
      .

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      • #18
        >One thing to consider is that the Paradise root would have had to survive as a seedling - a natural selection process in the climate of the day.

        Agreed to some extent, almost all stocks were once seedlings, sources I've read suggests that it seems identical (this can only be in some cases as therevwere many Paradise stocks) to the one described in ancient time in Paradise gardens (hence the name) ie in Persisa, and maybe here we have another clue Paradise gardens werewallwed, giving a micro climate, and most old orchards in my area, that I can think of arealso walled. Those that arn't are in dips so protected also.

        We also hear of French Paradise being used in England, and indeed the supposed parents of M9 were French paradise stock types, a different climate, but lessened if walled.

        >I must confess that M9 (reportedly related to Paradise) is trouble-free on my soil, apart from the fact that it lacks vigour!

        It is supposed to lack vigour ! It is dwarfing. Do you root prune your M9s ?

        >With the M and MM rootstocks being only 100 years old or less, they were selected in a different time period to Paradise.

        Different period of naming yes, but I think a contunation of older selections in several cases. Rootstocks that had been known for 100s of years. The Merton Malling seriesare much more recent, but both MM111 &MM106 sharea parent in Northern spay, which is interesting from your observations. Merton 793 is MM111 other parent


        > The M and MM hybrids may also have been selected with commercial orchards, specific locations (e.g. East Malling, Kent) and at least basic copper/sulphur sprays in mind (such sprays have been available for a bit over 100 years).

        I think it is fair to assume tht work wascareried out at the research station & under their conditions, I don't know how much work was retested in other areas.

        >Going back to M9 (and M26) -in my experience, it is relatively early to go dormant and relatively late to flower in spring. On the other hand, we're two weeks from Christmas and I still have some M25's in full leaf (well, half the leaves are now dead!), despite weeks of freezing temperatures. Being in full leaf, with full sapflow, can't be good for deep freeze conditions, where ice crystals form within the plant cells or sapflow system and burst them like frozen water pipes

        Many of my last years grafts on MM106 are also very leafy currently too, we had very mild weather just before the cold !

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