I'd like an orchard.......

[Curlykale]

of little fruit trees at my lottie. I have never grown any before and don't know where to start. I was thinking of maybe apples, pears and plums, but if anyone can recommend other types of fruit that would be great. I wouldn't want them to grow too big, but would want to get as much fruit as possible off them.

How far apart would they have to be planted? Is it ok to grow different types together or should I have more than one of each type? Are they difficult to grow? When is the best time to plant them? Can you recommend any varieties?

Sorry for so many questions - any advice gratefully received!

[chrisguk]

Your set of questions are a bit vague. Personally i'd recommend you start off growing 1 sort of fruit tree before moving on to more and different sorts of fruit trees. I think you'd find managing different sorts a bit overwhelming at first, especially with little or no experience.

How far apart depends on how large you want the trees to be, in particular to their rootstock, aswell as the local conditions, or even limitation of the size of plot, and perhaps training style.

With reference to apple trees, they aren't particularly difficult to grow, but different varieties are susceptible to different ailments or ground/environment conditions, even so with the rootstock; and thus need specific catering.

If you are after a nice bunch of edible fruit that look the best of quality, then you'd have to be prepared to invest some time and effort with respect to spraying with pesticides and fungicides; could you do this on an allotment?. There are organic methods, which are even more time consuming and of course are not usually as effective.

When you plant the trees depends on bare root or potted plants, i believe early in the year when chance of frost has cleared, but im not certain.

FB will most likely be along soon with a wealth of knowledge; a true expert.

My knowledge comes from approximately 3 years of growing fruit trees aswell as various web trawling and reading research.

Referring to my own apple trees, i tend to grow on M9 rootstocks. I've found they provide a much sturdier frame than a smaller M27 rootstock, and are said to bear more fruit than the latter. Their approximate final height can vary significantly dependant on the variety grafted, but i've read that 8-10ft can be attainable after 10 years. This can be managed however.

I leave roughly 1.5metres between my trees as im stuck for space in my back garden, and have more than adequate growth from each tree.

A variety i always recommend is Apple Scrumptious. Thin skinned, and probably the best of flavours, it was the first tree i acquired and seems easy to maintain and provides quite alot of fruit. It's in its third year and has provided over 30 fruit which is plenty considering the size of the tree.

Rather than go on and on, and throw information at you, i'll summarise a bit :
Grow apples (for the time being)
Decide on a suitable size or final height
Variety is completely your choice and is a personal preference, although you would not be disappointed with Apple Scrumptious


Feel free to ask more questions!

[Curlykale]

Wow Chris - thank you so much for taking the time to give me such a detailed answer.

I didn't realise there was so much to it - I'll have to do some serious research before I decide what to go for.

Thanks again

[FB.]

The most important thing is to plant varieties that have good disease resistance.
Unfortunately most of the common varieties - those bought from shops - are very prone to disease and you may well end up with a lot of problems.
Go for less-well-known varieties that have never been grown in large quantities.

Apples would be among the easiest. Pears and plums a bit less easy on account of scarcer pollinator trees and frost damage to the blossom in cold springs. Pears may tend to get canker and scab in wetter regions, since pears seem to have less resistance to cold and wet.
Currants and strawberries are quite easy. Alpine strawberries are good too.
Blueberries are easy and trouble-free (apart from birds) if you can find a spot that always remains damp - but they dislike tap water; they need rainwater.
Cherries tend to be quite vigorous, preferring to grow as medium-large trees, so defending cherry trees from birds can be a real chore.

Your local climate will affect which varieties grow, fruit and ripen successfully.
The NorthWest is a notoriously difficult place to grow clean, healthy fruits - but it is not impossible if you start out with varieties suited to the conditions.

I would suggest starting with the easier options, such as apples. They also have the greatest range of varieties, flavours and ripening seasons of almost any other fruit.
I can eat freshly-picked Beauty of Bath apples in late July, Discovery in August, Red Devil in Septemer, Egremont Russet in October through to Christmas....then come the late apples from storage. Most of the late apples will have been cookers when picked in Oct-Nov, and their acidity allows excellent storage qualites - some of which will slowly get sweeter and become eaters while in storage, with some keeping right through until the following summer - such as Annie Elizabeth.
I recently added a Hambledon Deux Ans tree to my apple collection, to see whether I really can keep the apples for deux ans (two years in French).

A good selection of apple trees, to provide fruit for almost the whole year, would be an easy starter fruit.
An early eater, an early cooker, a mid-season eater, a late eater and a late cooker would be a great start point.

This time of year is a great time to plant fruit trees - especially container-grown stock as their relatively undamaged roots will rapidly grow into the warm and moist autumn soil. If you opt for container stock, it is essential to untangle and spread out any coiled roots (even if you have to damage them) because coiled roots will not grow outwards into surrounding soil.

Winter planting of "bare root maiden" trees is very common - they are cheap and establish quickly, although sometimes the bare roots take a season to recover from the damage of being dug out of the nursery and shipped wrapped in damp straw.
I recently placed an order for five bare-rooted maiden apple trees, to acquire rare varieties that I am not currently growing and to see whether they're worthy of replacing some of my other trees in the future.

I would suggest apple rootstock M26 or MM111 for cooler and damper areas as they are hardier and more resistant to damp than other rootstocks.
M9 could also be very good, but it doesn't grow a strong root system so may require permanent staking to prevent leaning/falling over. It is also best suited to good, fertile soils with adequate moisture.

In my experience, the "guide size" "in the books", for most rootstocks, is about the maximum you'll ever get as an organic grower, since the trees have to fight off pests and diseases without chemical treatments. In many cases, organic trees will be somewhat smaller than "the books" say.
A tree size estimator is > here <

Looking through my notes, varieties that I've mostly grown myself and which I'd suggest as suitable for the harsh conditions of the Northwest include:

Early cooker: Grenadier or Reverend Wilks (Aug-Sep)
Mid-season cooker: Lord Derby (Oct-Dec)
Late season cooker: Annie Elizabeth or Crawley Beauty (Oct-Feb as cookers, Feb-April or longer as eaters after prolonged ripening in storage)

Early eater: Beauty of Bath (July-Aug)
Mid-season eater: Egremont Russet (Sept-Jan or longer)
Late season eater: Brownlees Russet or Winston (Jan-Apr after ripening in storage)

There are many others which have good reputations for pest and disease resistance, but I have not yet had the chance to "battle test" them under "no-spray" conditions.
It is possible that some areas are such a difficult environment that not much will grow. If there aren't many fruit trees (apple, plum, pear etc) in your area, that could be a bad sign.

Hope that helps

[chrisguk]

Ive just noticed you are located on the North West coast; is the salt in the air detrimental to apple trees at all FB?

Its worth noting a few things differ dependent on your location. For example, i too am in the North West, and while FB states a harvest period of August for Discovery, my whole crop is still glued on too the tree due to the difference in climate.

Dont think you need to do plenty of research, my first apple tree was more of an impulse buy than a planned endeavour. Think of a variety you'd like to grow, and then query us or your local garden centre. (FB preferably) After all, if you tend to an allotment over summer, the workload and required effort for your apples will hardly be noticeable. If anything, you'll probably prefer to spend time on your trees, especially watching your fruit grow!

IMHO more people should grow apples

[FB.]

Ive just noticed you are located on the North West coast; is the salt in the air detrimental to apple trees at all FB?

Yes, salty air can be a problem for apple trees - or most trees, in fact.
A few varieties have some tolerance of salt (e.g. D'Arcy Spice - but it ripens rather late for areas with short growing seasons).

Apples trees further North often ripen later (or eaters only mature enough to be used as cookers). Some of the really late ripening apples may not ripen properly at all.

Cold + wet + salt = trouble

Like I said; it may be worthwhile looking to see what fruits trees grow locally - maybe none at all.
If none are growing, it may be a bad sign.

In my area, plums and pears are very scarce: the droughty soil is not suitable for such fruits.
Even apples struggle - requiring very strong rootstocks and a lot of TLC to get them established, but even so, they grow painfully slowly.
This year, my most-vigorous M25-rooted trees managed about 15 inches of growth, while most of my trees/bushes (including many on M25 or MM111) managed no more than 12 inches.
I should add that the above MM111/M25 trees are no more than several years old, barely cropping and still (slowly) growing up to full size

[chrisguk]

I suppose how close to the coast you are may be of use to us then

For FB: I suppose all my future apples had best be early eaters, i never realised just how much of an effect the climate up here had until i read that the ripening time of Discovery was mid august and the weeks flew by with no harvest. With regards to such fruit, would leaving them to ripen inside (ie a in a fruitbowl) help them sweet somewhat. I have an Apple Sunset, first edible crop this year and 1 fell away easily while the rest did not. The flavour was more crisp and tart than the sweet im used to reading of. Would leaving them inside the house for a few days help them to sweeten?

Im aware i could leave them on, im just enquiring as to a solution for any later varieties i have.

[FB.]

A couple of things come to mind:

Are you fairly confident that the tree you were supplied is Discovery? Sometimes nurseries supply the wrong variety.
I can pick the first of my Discovery's in late July, with most being picked by the end of August.
A month late sounds very strange, although maybe the very long cold winter delayed things. "Down here" we had the worst winter in 30 years - bad enough to cripple a lot of my M25's and some of my MM106's; resulting in the death of many trees during the summer (as I'm sure you've read about in my postings).

Off the top of my head, I recall losing the following young half-standard trees to crown rot/canker as a direct result of the bark damage caused by the terrible winter: freeze-thaw of ice/snow and persistently saturated ground after each batch of snow gradually melted:

Annie Elizabeth, M25
Ard Cairn Russet, M25
Belle de Boskoop, M25
Brownlees Russet, M25
Edward VII, M25
Norfolk Beefing, M25

(all M25's died from crown rot/canker of the rootstock at ground level)

D'Arcy Spice, MM106
Jumbo, MM106
Suntan, MM106

(all M106's died from crown rot/canker of the rootstock at ground level)

Discovery, MM111
(the "Discovery" part died from canker entering the graft join; the trees death was not due to a "crown rot" problem with the rootstock)

Additionally, the split bark and recent prolonged wet spell looks like it's causing cankr to attack several of my previously healthy trees.
This winter, it looks like I'll have to deal with more repercussions of last winter, by cutting out cankers on several trees (not helped by woolly aphids attacking the split bark) - including:

Bountiful
Discovery
Ellison's Orange
Fiesta
Golden Delicious
Howgate Wonder
James Grieve
Worcester Pearmain


I also lost most of my young pears trees to canker (both rootstock and scion cankers - the pears *really* didn't like the cold/wet):

Catillac, Pyrus (two trees of this combo died)
Concorde, Pyrus
Concorde, Quince A
Conference, Pyrus
Hessle, Pyrus

Additionally, my single plum tree (bush actually) - Victoria St.Julien A - also suffered numerous bark splits last winter, which may now be getting canker infections that look like they'll eventually kill the tree - although it may take a few years to "finish the job". However, a dying tree often produces fantastic quantity and quality of fruit in its "last gasp" at reproduction.

Basically: last winter was incredible destructive and disruptive.
Anyway...I've gone a bit off-topic - apologies.

[FB.]

I have an Apple Sunset, first edible crop this year and 1 fell away easily while the rest did not. The flavour was more crisp and tart than the sweet im used to reading of. Would leaving them inside the house for a few days help them to sweeten?

Im aware i could leave them on, im just enquiring as to a solution for any later varieties i have.

Young trees often produce lower-quality fruit.
Some apples - mostly the July-August ones) are best eaten straight from the tree.
Many of the later apples are best allowed to ripen for a while after picking (some require 2-3 months of cool storage before they're edible). With many "late" apples, the acidity is what helps them stay fresh all winter. The acidity gradually fades in storage and the underlying flavours can some through. As acidity is lost, the fruit seems to become more prone to rotting.

Also, slightly shrivelled apples have lost moisture, which makes the flavours more intense ("double-concentrated" ). Many russets are best when slightly shrivelled, after 2-3 months of "mellowing" in storage. I once kept a (Egremont?) Russet apple in my locker at work, at 21'c for about five months. Despite being shrivelled and resembling a dead toad, it didn't rot and still tasted wonderful.

If you store apple in the house for more than several days, they can become "tainted" with household odours.
Placing unripe fruit near to ripe fruit may cause the unripe fruit to ripen faster as a result of vapours given off by ripe fruit.

[chrisguk]

The snow last winter was horrendous, no significant damage luckily, just some of the previous seasons growth that had died off and need snipping off.

It certainly looks similar to most discovery's, deep red and of a squashed shape. I acquired from Thompson and Morgan, a reputable company.

Yeah i have read a few of your posts regarding the losses of trees, and i feel for you; i'd hate to lose something ive been growing for a few years, especially if i propagated them myself.

[FB.]

The snow last winter was horrendous, no significant damage luckily, just some of the previous seasons growth that had died off and need snipping off.

It certainly looks similar to most discovery's, deep red and of a squashed shape. I acquired from Thompson and Morgan, a reputable company.

Yeah i have read a few of your posts regarding the losses of trees, and i feel for you; i'd hate to lose something ive been growing for a few years, especially if i propagated them myself.

Ah - your trees are on M26 rootstock, which is hardier-than-average.
My own M26's all survived too. Not that I have many M26's nowadays as M26 really struggles in my poor soil, so I gave them away to friends who wanted compact little things for their gardens.

My MM111's also escaped rootstock damage from last winter.
MM111 is a hardy, sturdy, disease-resistant, drought-resistant, vigorous rootstock that is the greatest "survivor" of all apple rootstocks in harsh conditions - even surpassing most vigorous/semi-vigorous (MM106, M2, M25) or seedling rootstocks in its tolerance of awful conditions. The unusual structure of MM111's roots may be what makes it a survivor.

.

[chrisguk]

Erm, i seem to have missed out 1 of your posts, you must of posted in the time i spent reading the first of your double posts and actually finished responding. I need to stop taking my time

5 months? It must of looked like a prune, or even worse, just as you said, a dead toad. I dont know how you managed to not wretch.

I have heard about placing different fruits together which can cause usually unwanted early ripening, bananas i believe are the culprit.

Actually, i only possess 1 apple tree on an M26, and its stuck in a pot The rest are on either M9 or M27. The only casualties i suffered were my freshly planted soft fruit bushes (in pots), and even the blackcurrents scraped through.

The M26 apple tree, Fiesta (aka Red Pippin i believe) actually had ample fruit on it, 20+, until some strong winds blew it over.

[FB.]

M27 and M9 - like M26 - are also reasonably tolerant of wet ground, compared to MM106 or M25. I still have a few M9's that have never been troublesome for rotting - and when I had some M27's, they were not prone to rotting either.

The "new" M116 rootstock is supposed to be very resistant to crown and collar rot - the main problem in wet areas.

Most dwarf or semi-dwarf rootstocks have quite weak roots that break easily (M9 in particular, but also M27 and M26 to some extent).
M26 also has a tendency to grow a one-sided root system, so can also result in leaning trees or uprooted trees until the roots have gone really deep to give half-decent anchorage. Good/moist soils encourage shallow rooting and small root systems (because the tree only grows enough roots to supply the water and nutrients that it needs), which exagerates the problem of structurally weak roots.

On a good soil (often of the type needed to sustain dwarf rootstocks), an apple tree may be 25% roots, 75% canopy.
On a poor soil, an apple tree can be as much as 65% roots and 35% canopy.

I've sometimes kept "maidens" in a separate bed for growing-up before putting in their final position. Most of them develop much bigger roots than canopies - they need huge, deep root systems to gather enough water in the dry soil that we suffer every year between April-August. We average less than 20 inches (50cm) of rain per year - most of it is non-penetrating light showers or drizzle that quickly dries in the sun and wind.

Fortunately, the sunny climate here means that the trees don't need many leaves to gather a lot of the sun's energy.

[Curlykale]

FB, thanks for your detailed response too - wow what an expert! When I've had a look through the catalogues and prepared my shopping list I'll run it by you before I order, if that's ok.

[BeatTheSeasons]

Hi CK,

Have you checked your allotment rules on growing trees? (in case they shade the rest of the plot, spread their roots out, etc.).

Also I guess you are already growing all the easy and rewarding fruit like strawberries and raspberries that doesn't take up much room?

Good luck with the mini-orchard. I am going to try and get at least one apple tree in the ground this autumn as well.