Fruit tree for a NW-ish facing garden?

[Nordmead]

we're getting rid of our rowan tree and want to replace it with a fruit tree.. i was hoping for an apple tree but would there be enough light for it? usually in the summer we start to get the sun at around 9/10am. i think the tree thats about 4 or 5 feet away from where it would be planted is some sort of crab apple so i dont think pollination would be an issue.. i was thinking of an egremont russet or d'arcy spice.. or some other dual purpose type

if my garden isnt suitable for an apple tree what fruit tree would be? apart from a morello cherry

EDIT: i thought id add a bigger list of apple iv'e been considering

Blenheim Orange - i think the apples look very pretty
Charles Ross
Egremont Russet
D'arcy Spice
James Grieve
Annie Elizabeth

[FB.]

Apple trees (or any other kind of fruit trees) often grow tall enough that their canopy is in a lot more sun than their roots.

In a semi-shaded position, I'd lean towards cooking or dual purpose apples, or earlier-ripening apples, or Scottish apples (due to duller/cooler climate).
Bear in mind that early-ripening eating apples are subject to greater insect attack.

From your list, I'd constructively criticise as follows:

Blenheim Orange: variable scab resistance, depending on your locality and the bio-types of the disease prevalent in the area.

Charles Ross: a possibility. I don't grow it, but apart form the short shelf-life, I can't think why I don't.

Egremont Russet: a possibility. Does well in most areas.

D'Arcy Spice: needs lots of sun, ripens very late (I still haven't picked mine) and fruit quality is better in drier seasons (partial shade will be damp ground). Also very slow growing and needs a stronger rootstock than "the books" would suggest (not that I'd suggest going "by the book" because most books talk about trees in perfect soils and with a full spray routine. Trees in less-than-perfect soils, or under attack from insects and fungi are much slower growers.

James Grieve: probably the happiest in a dull/cool environment. Variable scab resistance, depending on local scab types.

Annie Elizabeth: a possibility, but mine are only ripening just now, so a part-shaded area may not ripen properly.

Some other varieties that I'd suggest, for your consideration:
Discovery
Tydeman's Early Worcester
Beauty of Bath
Grenadier
Reverend Wilks
Falstaff
Bountiful
Spartan


Choice of rootstock would depend on variety, soil and how big you want the tree to be. Soils in part-shade often retain mosture all year and will usually encourage larger trees than the typical soil in the area.
A tree size estimator is >here<
.


Generally speaking, more dwarfing apple rootstocks bring forward the ripening of the fruit, whereas more vigorous rootstocks tend to delay ripening of the fruit. This could affect the ability of some varieties to ripen.
Trees in shady areas will be more attractive to woolly aphids, so the partial woolly aphid resistance of MM rootstocks may be useful.
However, if the shady area remains waterlogged in winter, MM106 will die from crown and root rots, so MM111 would be better.

[Nordmead]

thanks for the reply FB ive taken blenheim orange out because it gets too big on the MM rootstocks, but i would like an apple i can cook with as well as eat which makes me more inclined to get either annie elizabeth (i hear the flavour may be worth risking it) or egremont russet, but im also keeping in mind grenadier, bountiful and charles ross

as for the waterlogging, the garden is on a slight tilt so all the water usually gets drained away from the tree and towards the house but the whole area is paved so i suppose that will act as a mulch of some sorts

[Nordmead]

okay so ive had quite a big think about this and have come to the conclusion that if the M26 rootstock is suitable i may go for blenheim orange, but if its not i'll go for bountiful on the MM111 since it has more attractive fruit than the grenadier.. although i suppose it should be flavour that governs my choice rather than attractiveness of the fruit

[FB.]

I'd choose a MM111 Bountiful over a M26 Blenheim.

Bountiful has a lot of plus points from a growing perspective - it is keen to fruit heavily at a young age and is a spur-bearer.

Blenheim, on the other hand, often takes many years to start cropping, is a light cropper (which will be made worse by partial shade) and it is a tip bearer which complicates pruning. It is also triploid, sensitive to late frosts and can be prone to scab in some parts of the country.
The vigorous varieties have a tendency to have large distances between branches compared to less vigorous varieties, which can make for a very straggly appearance when on a dwarf rootstock: the Blenheims and Bramleys do best as a full-size "heavy standard".
My MM106 and MM111 Bountiful only require minimal pruning and are happy to form side branches and fruit spurs without my intervention, whereas my M26 Bramley and Blenheim require heavy and repeated pruning to encourage branching and guide their growth.

I have a Blenheim on M26 for the historical curiosity of the type, but I think that for most requirements it's a "has been", which is barely worth retaining nowadays: too vigorous, too reluctant to fruit, no special disease resistance and can be substituted by far easier varieties.
My MM106 Bountiful is far more productive, attractive and easy to grow than my M26 Blenheim.


......................


In any case, give it more thought before committing to any particular variety or rootstock.
In tough conditions, it is better to have a vigorous rootstock with a compact variety than to have a weak rootstock with a vigorous variety.

My own growing conditions are quite harsh and where possible I favour the vigorous roots of MM111 or M25 with small-ish varieties grafted on top: the vigorous roots can easily keep up with the demands of a slower-growing tree.

As long as your ground doesn't become saturated, MM106 will be OK, although as you've deduced, it is possible to balance rootstock and scion to achieve a certain size tree.

Generaly speaking, the smaller the rootstock, the more brittle the wood and the more likely that the tree will lean or be blown over.
M26 roots are quite easy to snap by hand and the root system is often very one-sided, relying on just a handful of large roots, whereas a MM111 root of the same thickness is very difficult to break and MM111 spreads many roots in all directions (which is why it is also very drought resistant: if there's water, one of MM111's numerous roots will find it).

[FB.]

One more thing......

I'd definitely prefer to take a chance on a M26 Annie Elizabeth than a M26 Blenheim.

The M26 will influence slightly earlier ripening, so the Annie's may ripen sufficiently.

Additionally, Annie is much easier to encourage to branch than a Blenheim - and Annie forms into nice, neat, attractive-looking trees with very good all-round disease resistance.

[Nordmead]

well i think logic dictates getting bountiful since it should definatley ripen and it'll be on a stronger rootstock so it may turn out to be a healthier tree, but after seeing this () how can i not at least attempt to grow annie elizabeth

looks like im gunna have to give it another think and try and get to a nursery and see what they have

thanks again for that mass of information

[FB.]

Blenheim and Bountiful are fairly easy to find.
Annie Elizabeth is harder to find and stocks quickly sell out.
The main problem with Annie is that she easily drops her fruit on windy days and the fruits feel quite greasy or waxy.

As for rootstocks:
MM106 is the standard rootstock of most nurseries, so is available almost everywhere. M26 is also reasonably easy to find.
MM111 is quite a rare rootstock and only a few specialist nurseries supply trees grafted on it - and the range of trees grafted onto it is usually quite small.

MM111 is promoted as being "too big" for garden use, which scares people away and reduces demand.
But, as you've noticed, some apple varieties are slower growers and are therefore ideal on the stronger rootstocks.
I believe that MM111 should be more widely available as it's such a rugged rootstock, ideal for people with less-than-perfect-soils: in difficult conditions (cold winters, drought, very heavy soil etc), MM111 copes better than any other apple rootstock.

[Nordmead]

my garden is quite enclosed so dropping fruit in the wind shouldnt be an issue, i see what you mean about annie selling out quickly, i just tried to find one online and its either not available on M26 or sold out until "next winter" ..maybe they just havent updated their records yet. would they both fruit this coming spring as 1 year maidens, or would i need a 2 year for that?

[FB.]

"...maybe they just havent updated their records yet...."

I suspect that they updated their records in about August, but then updated again shortly afterwards to "out of stock".

Sadly, it is usually the case that Annie is very much in demand and sells out before they even start the bare-root season.
You often have to order in late summer to get the best of the unusual varieties. By the time bare-root season arrives around this time of year, you're generally left with just the common varieties.

I'd suggest looking at these large nurseries to see if they have Annie available:

Bernwode
Blackmoor
Chris Bowers
Deacons
Keepers
R.V.Roger

[FB.]

would they both fruit this coming spring as 1 year maidens, or would i need a 2 year for that?

A maiden will be no more than a bamboo cane in size - about half-inch thick and about 4ft above ground when planted.
Most varieties are physically incapable of fruiting on one-year-old stems. If a young tree is allowed to fruit, it is liable to leaning and bending (or even breaking) under the weight of fruit.
M26 is very prone to stalling out if the branches or main trunk are allowed to bend, as this impairs sapflow.

Generally speaking, it is better to not allow young trees to fruit until a couple of years after planting.
You will often find that the demands of the fruit are too much for an immature/not established root system, resulting in no growth, a sickly and diseased tree and small, poor-quality fruit that mostly gets destroyed by pests anyway.
A tree that tries to grow strongly and fruit at the same time will suffer a lot of bitter pit, making the fruit inedible, being full of nasty-tasting and necrotic brown spots and hollow areas in the fruit. Bitter pit is worse on large apples and on soils with lots of nitrogen. Annie is not immue to bitter pit.

But if you want fruit sooner, you'll need a 2-3 year old tree. However, they can be more difficult to establish than single-stem maidens.

[Nordmead]

so if i cant get hold of annie elizabeth which one in your opinion cooks better.. bountiful or grenadier?

[FB.]

Grenadier is one of the best-tasting cookers and is also very resistant to just about all apple diseases and is a real survivor in difficult situations where most other apples would fail.
Interestingly, even the woolly aphids gave up attacking my M9 Grenadier cordon, although a number of my other apples (including Bountiful) remain colonised with woolly aphid.
Although Grenadier doesn't suffer much from maggots or worms in the fruits, it can suffer from surface nibblings of earwigs and capsid bugs. The surface nibblings can easily be peeled out when preparing the fruit for cooking.
Grenadier's big downfall is the short shelf life. A whole trees worth of Grenadier fruit is too much fruit to use in its short shelf life.

Reverend Wilks is also an excellent early cooker, with many of Grenadier's good easy-growing qualities, but Rev.Wilks is somewhat biennial.

Bountiful is also easy to grow, with reasonably good all-round resistance to disease - but its resistance is not in the same league as Grenadier.

Bountiful's taste is also only average. On the plus side, Bountiful is not too acidic, so can be used as an eater after a few weeks off the tree to ripen. Grenadier and Rev.Wilks are very acid and not suitable for eating no matter how much you try to ripen them.
But remember that high acid levels is part of an English cooker: when cooked, the acid breaks down the hard flesh into a softer texture or puree and the acid becomes partly neutralised in the cooking process.

[Nordmead]

sounds like grenadier's back to the top of the list i suppose i could always peel and freeze to get around the short shelf life.. not to keen on finding any maggots or worms in them though

[FB.]

not to keen on finding any maggots or worms in them though

I agree.

I find that, as a general rule, the following features reduce the attraction of the fruit to maggots:

Cooking apples.
Later-ripening apples.
Green or poorly coloured apples.
Apples on the shadier parts of the tree.
Small apples.
Thick-skinned apples.
Tough-fleshed apples.
Russet apples.
Late flowering apples.


Also, as a rough rule, the following features seem to increase the attraction of the fruit to maggots:

Eating apples - especially those with great flavours.
Early and mid-season ripening apples.
Red or well-coloured apples.
Apples on the sunnier aspects of the tree.
Large apples.
Clusters of large apples.
Thin-skinned apples.
Soft-fleshed apples.
Scented apples.
Early-flowering apples.



It must be remembered that if the pests have nothing else to eat, then they will attack whatever food source is available: if you were hungry, you'd eat anything, but if there's plenty of food around, you'll pick the best.

I recommend that all home-grown apples are cut in half, just in case it's someone's home.