New Apple Tree ideas

[RobP]

Hi

We've decided that we'd like to grow an apple tree in our garden. Having watched a few tv shows recently that mention them I'm quite intrigued by the idea of a tree with 2 or 3 different types of apple growing on it.

Realistically, in mid-long term will a dual/triple fruit tree be as productive as a 'normal' tree?

Will it get to the point where its a fully developed tree where half of the tree is type x and the other half type y? I am a bit sceptical, but mainly because I've never seen an older tree like this (always seems to be a tree thats about 5 foot tall with 4 spindly branches ridiculously heavily laden with different types of fruit).

That debate aside... there are other questions, principally I dont really know which variety(ies) I'd like to grow. My apple of choice at the supermarket is Braeburn, but I've read (probably elsewhere on the vine) that they're not well suited to growing outside of the south of england, so I guess I'd like something that has similar taste/texture to a braeburn apple. Though conditions arent particularly harsh here in north yorkshire, I am in the vale of york where it really, really likes raining..

The soil the tree would be growing in seems to be reasonably fertile, though its very, very compacted and as a result tends to get very waterlogged (this would be remedied somewhat where I planted the tree, just by digging the hole, but around it would remain as my heavily compacted lawn).

I would like the tree to grow to be fairly large, I would like it to be tall enough to walk below it eventually - how tall would the overall tree need to be to allow this? Though I'd not want it to spread to more than say 6m in diameter as that would start to stretch over neighbouring gardens, it would also get dangerously close to shading my veg patch!

Another point to note is that I dont really want to have to be using lots of sprays, fungicides etc as I try and avoid chemicals where possible in the garden.

There are tons of other apple trees in other peoples gardens etc so pollination shouldnt be a big issue, I have what I've been told is a cox's orange pippin in my front garden as well which is probably about 20m away from where I'd plan to put the new tree, but I can see about a dozen apple trees if I look up/down my street from my window in peoples back gardens so should be fine..

Lots of questions, sorry, but to summarise:

Are double/triple variety trees worth it, do they work in the mid-long term without a lot of care/attention?

Which rootstock and apple variety or varieties would suit my requirements do you think?

Apologies for the long, rambling post! Any assistance would be much appreciated

[Two_Sheds]

Have a good look through FB's threads and posts, using the search button

I hope this link works, it's all his threads: http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...archid=1501649

[FB.]

Realistically, in mid-long term will a dual/triple fruit tree be as productive as a 'normal' tree?

Yes, it should be just as productive.

Will it get to the point where its a fully developed tree where half of the tree is type x and the other half type y?

Yes, the tree will have a different type/colour of fruit on each side.

I am a bit sceptical, but mainly because I've never seen an older tree like this (always seems to be a tree thats about 5 foot tall with 4 spindly branches ridiculously heavily laden with different types of fruit).

The reason that you haven't seen a full-size tree like that is because the three different varieties all grow at different rates - and some of them grow upwards, while some grow outwards.
Family trees will require more pruning to keep the three different varieties in balance. With larger trees, it is not so easy to prune.

That debate aside... there are other questions, principally I dont really know which variety(ies) I'd like to grow.

Don't grow the supermarket varieties. They are very prone to pests and diseases and will usually not be healthy unless you undertake a full spray routine. Besides: why grow whay you can buy in the shops?

I am in the vale of york where it really, really likes raining..
Then you will need an apple with strong resistance to scab and at least a little resistance to canker and mildew - and also some tolerance of late frosts (which can kill blossom).


The soil the tree would be growing in seems to be reasonably fertile, though its very, very compacted and as a result tends to get very waterlogged (this would be remedied somewhat where I planted the tree, just by digging the hole, but around it would remain as my heavily compacted lawn).

Waterlogged soil is a death sentence for the common "semi-vigorous" MM106 and "vigorous" M25 rootstocks. I strongly urge you to seek-out MM111 rootstock, which has partial resistance to root rots in heavy soil.
In addition, MM111 is probably the most rugged apple rootstock available and it will tolerate extreme conditions (hot, cold, drought, flooding) better than any other. It also has partial resistance to woolly aphid, which are a very disfiguring pest of apple trees.
Alternatively, if MM111 not available, plant the tree in a mound, to encourage water to run-off and to keep the base of the trunk out of any standing water.

I would like the tree to grow to be fairly large, I would like it to be tall enough to walk below it eventually - how tall would the overall tree need to be to allow this?

There is a tree size estimator > here <

Again, MM111 rootstock is about the smallest rootstock that would give a home-grower a full-size tree. Many quotes on tree size tend to refer to the fastest-growing varieties on rich deep soils with a full spray routine: in other words the absolute maximum potential of the rootstock.
In the real-world, most home-growers trees have to suffer varied less-than-ideal soil conditions and also have to fight off pests and diseases. In some areas, this can dramatically reduce the final tree size.
With the commonly-available MM106 rootstock, only vigorous varieties will grow into full-size trees, but the roots will still be rather too weak for such a large tree in difficult conditions. For most varieties, you need MM111 or M25 rootstock. But remember that MM106 and M25 are prone to root rot in areas prone to flooding.

Though I'd not want it to spread to more than say 6m in diameter as that would start to stretch over neighbouring gardens, it would also get dangerously close to shading my veg patch!
All trees need pruning at some point and that's how a tree is kept to the size that you want. A keen gardener near to me has a seedling-rootstocked Bramley that's about 60 years old, yet his excellent pruning holds it to just 9ft height and 12ft spread - nicely shaped and very heavy cropping.
Trees that aren't pruned at least occasionally will tend to have more leaves and less fruits.

Another point to note is that I dont really want to have to be using lots of sprays, fungicides etc as I try and avoid chemicals where possible in the garden.
Then, as mentioned above, you should consider your varieties very carefully.
Most modern apple growing is done with heavy spray routines and most modern varieties (and shop varieties) are bred with the use of sprays in mind.
The home grower needs to be very selective to achieve good crops and a healthy tree.

There are tons of other apple trees in other peoples gardens etc so pollination shouldnt be a big issue, I have what I've been told is a cox's orange pippin in my front garden as well which is probably about 20m away from where I'd plan to put the new tree, but I can see about a dozen apple trees if I look up/down my street from my window in peoples back gardens so should be fine..
Pollination should be OK. Apple trees in neighbouring gardens almost certainly will pollinate each other. They can even cross-pollinate from a few streets away (depending on bee flights).

Lots of questions, sorry, but to summarise:

Are double/triple variety trees worth it, do they work in the mid-long term without a lot of care/attention?
I wouldn't choose one - especially for a big tree.
Which rootstock and apple variety or varieties would suit my requirements do you think?
MM111 rootstock copes best in difficult conditions. M25 is more vigorous but less tolerant of poor conditions. MM106 would only be suitable for larger trees when grafted with vigorous varieties. M26, M9 and M27 are too weak for anything more than small-medium bushes.

Varieties that I've grown and would shortlist that have good all-round disease resistance and possibly some tolerance of late frosts (although some of the later-ripening apples may not ripen fully up North):

Annie Elizabeth
Brownlees Russet
Court Pendu Plat
Crawley Beauty
Discovery
D'Arcy Spice
Edward VII
Egremont Russet
Grenadier
Red Devil
Saturn
Winston


I must say that I'm surprised that Cox's can survive in your area. Cox's is normally a rather weak and sickly tree that suffers from all kinds of diseases and is generally difficult to grow.

Apologies for the long, rambling post! Any assistance would be much appreciated

[Two_Sheds]

I'm quite intrigued by the idea of a tree with 2 or 3 different types of apple growing on it.

Alys Fowler meets Paul Barnett, an apple man who grows 250 different varieties of apple - on just one tree! watch again: BBC - BBC Two Programmes - Gardeners&#39; World, 2010/2011, Episode 29

[Mell]

>Are double/triple variety trees worth it, do they work in the mid-long term without a lot of care/attention?

You will need more attention, as FB says more pruning

>Which rootstock and apple variety or varieties would suit my requirements do you think?

I don't agree with FB dissing of MM106 It does well on Leicestershire clays. But agree with most of the rest, esp if you are looking for a bit tree a family tree isn't really the way to go.

[RobP]

Thanks very much for the really informative response FB, and followup from Mell, much appreciated!

I think I've settled on a Winston on MM111, just need to find it now!

Twosheds, that 250variety tree is what set me off on the family tree idea..!

[RobP]

Also kind of tempted by Annie Elizabeth having seen FB raving about them! How is it as an eating apple and how well does it store? (assume that it becomes a better eater and worse cooker over time?).

It might suffer as it would be a fairly large tree so I guess it would be liable to attack me with it's fruit in windy weather, but I assume it would leave more than enough for general consumption still on the tree?

Thank again
Rob

[Mell]

I like Annie Elizabeth, mainly coz it is a Leicestershire apple. Tends to be VERY upright, can spot it way off. If falling off in wind is a criteria, maybe an apple that stays on the tree for ages ? I found one last year with edible fruit on it mid march

[FB.]

I don't agree with FB dissing of MM106 It does well on Leicestershire clays.

I can only speak as I find.

For me, MM106 and M25 have suffered heavy losses to winter freezing and crown rot when the soil is near-saturation.
On the other hand, MM111 and M26 have never suffered from crown rot or winter damage.

I have also found that MM106 is much fussier about soil moisture fluctuation than any other apple rootstock.
After a dry spell, MM106 needs a long period of moist soil for root growth to resume. If the soil dries within a few days of summer rainfall, MM106 roots don't have time to react and won't grow at all.
On the other hand, MM111 is very quick to send out fine roots once water becomes available. In fact, MM111 has a very interesting and distinctive root structure, compared to other rootstocks.

In my soil, even the "smaller" M26 rootstock often responds faster to water after a drought than MM106, although MM106 roots do eventually grow fast, but only after they have spent a long time "thinking" about it.
But if the soil dries quickly, MM106 roots don't grow at all.

For me, MM111 has really proven itself as the ultimate apple rootstock for difficult conditions: dry soil, wet soil, hot soil, cold soil, shallow soil.
In my experience, in my area, even the very vigorous M25 or seedling rootstocks can't match MM111 for survivability when the going gets really tough.

[Mell]

I can only speak as I find.
.

As can we all

I know from your previous posts you have had trouble maintaining stock in you area and for you the MM111 seems to work well. But for Leicestershire clays MM106 is a very viable option, there are several community orchard here that have seen over 10 years on MM106, with no harm that could be attributed to the rootstock and we tend to put 90% of our apples on MM106. We would be doing that if we felt they were at risk as many have only one mature tree remaing

Many, if not most, of the specilist apple nurseries use (or used as they are getting fewer) MM106.

So I don't doubt that MM111 is your solution in your conditions, but I do feel that MM106 can be perfectly viable in many conditions and I feel it is a flexible rootstock offering a foundation both in the ground and in pots, as well as for cordons & other fancies should one be so inclined ! I feel MM111 might be a little too good in many situations !

It very much depends what one wants and where you are, local conditions should be the primary basis for choosing rootstock, and local knowledge should lead in this.

I'd suggest most people talk to locals with orchards (on known rootstock) to get a feel in the area. England in particular list community orchards , local tree wardens might help, and the county rangers often found via the museum service are worth speaking to.

RobP in your case you have a very active orchard group in your area and it would be well worth talking to them as they have extensive knowledge and are a nice group of people. Northern Fruit Group home page | Promoting fruit growing in the North of England one of their aims is to help others set up orchards.

Because I believe it promoting local apples for local areas I'd also suggest a good look at their Yorkshire Apples page ! You might just be in time to see the 16 local cultivars at the Great Yorkshire Showground in Harrogate and have a taste of some, I don't know their fruiting times so maybe not !

[RobP]

Mell,
I'm not that fussed about windfalls as long as a decent amoun of the apples stay on the tree so they can be eaten - how what proportion of apples tend to drop?

Cheers

Rob

[RobP]

Was a bit slow replying there and missed your post sorry, will have a look at your link and ask a few questions

Cheers

[Mell]

I'm not that fussed about windfalls as long as a decent amoun of the apples stay on the tree so they can be eaten - how what proportion of apples tend to drop?

I'm not sure I can say, all the trees I know of AnnieE are in community orchards and tend to be picked bare ! That might include windfalls too, ie they get picked up and used. Basically it is rare to see apples on the ground at all, except very later ones and then only a few , briefly. I think on a large tree plenty would remain, but I couldn't honestly be sure I'll ask around & see what other locals might have observed.

[FB.]

I know from your previous posts you have had trouble maintaining stock in you area and for you the MM111 seems to work well. But for Leicestershire clays MM106 is a very viable option, there are several community orchard here that have seen over 10 years on MM106, with no harm that could be attributed to the rootstock and we tend to put 90% of our apples on MM106. We would be doing that if we felt they were at risk as many have only one mature tree remaing

Many, if not most, of the specilist apple nurseries use (or used as they are getting fewer) MM106.

I agree - MM106 is popular (probably the most popular). It wouldn't be popular if it wasn't generally quite good. But I would not put my faith in it for a more difficult location (MM111 is the choice for a difficult location).

So I don't doubt that MM111 is your solution in your conditions, but I do feel that MM106 can be perfectly viable in many conditions and I feel it is a flexible rootstock offering a foundation both in the ground and in pots, as well as for cordons & other fancies should one be so inclined ! I feel MM111 might be a little too good in many situations !

MM111 is a strange rootstock. It is only modestly bigger than MM106 when both are grown in good conditions. But MM111 copes better with not-so-good conditions. While MM106 has a large variation in performance on different locations, MM111 is more consistent.

I must say that in my experience, I'd rather have a rootstock with a little more vigour than I need because at least I can prune it, whereas too little vigour can be difficult to persuade to grow or heal itself after damage.

I originally suggested MM111 because the poster gave me a slight concern about the soil.

You can find almost any variety on MM106, but only maybe 10% of varieties on MM111 because it is considered to be a little too strong for most uses.
However, its size can also be balanced by selecting a slightly weak growing scion variety.

One thing that may interest you and which may suggest that your soil is quite good, whereas mine is quite poor:
Annie Elizabeth is from your area. Although she's a great variety, I find that Annie prefers good soils. She also has a surprisingly small root system (needing of a good soil), compared to other apple varieties.

I guess that each variety has its optimum root:shoot proportions and that influences both tree size above ground and root size below ground.

As an example of Annie having small-ish root system and MM106 disliking poor soil:

I have a M26 D'Arcy Spice and a MM106 Annie Elizabeth of about the same age.
Both planted within several feet of each other, in a poor soil.

Above ground, the D'Arcy Spice is just as big as the Annie.
Below ground, the M26 is twice as large as the MM106.

Not an outcome that you'd normally expect: Annie is considered to be reasonably vigorous, while D'Arcy is known for growing slowly.
Additionally, MM106 is generally considered to be more vigorous than M26.

However, the D'Arcy/M26 combo seems much better suited to my difficult conditions.

Incidentally, I lost my M25 Annie, but my M25 D'Arcy is still going strong.

It goes to show how certain varieties and certain rootstocks can do well or badly in certain areas.

I've also found that some of the "ancient" varieties, such as Court Pendu Plat and Coeur de Boeuf, grow "oversize" root systems, while Annie Elizabeth, Edward VII (possibly related to Annie?) and certain others have fairly "undersized" root systems.

Food for thought.

[Mell]

[QUOTE=FB.;769354] One thing that may interest you and which may suggest that your soil is quite good, whereas mine is quite poor:
Annie Elizabeth is from your area. Although she's a great variety, I find that Annie prefers good soils. She also has a surprisingly small root system (needing of a good soil), compared to other apple varieties.

[QUOTE]

I wish I knewq how to multiquote on this !


Interesting stuff, but this bit interest me a lot. Although Annie E is from our area , the original tree was on its own roots, not MM106, now what it was then grafted onto in the 19th C would probably NOT be MM106 either. Remember we mentioned about the old books stating its decorative blossom which I've yet to see ? Hmm then it struck me Annie E in the orchards here might well not be doing well, I said as community orchard they tend to be stripped bare, but another scenario might well be that there were not many to start with ? So maybe it isn't doing so well on MM106 in Leicestershire, no pink blossom , maybe less fruit, I don't personally have a mature tree. But I think it may be worth investigating this further. We have been concentrating on getting most of these back on their own roots because it would seem that was where they worked well first time off..

Anyhow I fear Annie is not my top priority as the cultivar is very safe, but you certainly have given food for thought on this ! Thanks for sharing your experiance.