Can I use mm106 for upright or oblique cordons

[fevvers]

Hi,
I'm new here, and thought I'd join as there are clearly a lot of people with in depth experience of growing apples.

I have just bought a couple of maiden trees on mm106 rootstock, ashmeads kernal and fiesta, with the intention of starting a row of cordon or pillar trees on my allotment. I chose the rootstock based on the advice on one tree nursery site that this was a good all purpose one. Every other source of information suggests that this rootstock is not suitable, or often used for cordons.

Have I made a mistake? Will they work, do I need to do anything to curb their vigour?

I also have two 2yr old trees which I grafted at a workshop onto m27, Bramley and Blenhiem Orange, These are still in pots and have no significant side shoots.

and I've been seduced by the hype onto buying one of the new Redlove trees on M9...

Can these other trees be made into cordons in the same row,or would the different amounts of vigour make problems?

The soil is on clay/ silt subsoil, so it tends to hold some water but has been cultivated for so long it is generally deep and humus rich - you can push a spade in by hand to its full depth. Bristol tends to be mild and damp in climate.

[Davyburns]

Hi, and welcome to the Vine.

Its beyond my capabilities, but i'm sure someone will be along to give you advice shortly

[Mell]

I'm surprised aworkshop had you put Bramley and Blenhiem Orange on M27, both are triploid and very vigerous, and I think M27 will struggle to support them, maybe hence no side shoots. There are a few oprtion you can treat the M27 as a nurse root, bury the stem below the graft and hope they produce their own roots. Downside being the trees potentially get very large but there are cultivation methods that will stop that, or you regraft the Bramley and Blenhiem Orange onto more suitable rootstock and use the M27s for pot grown apples of a less vigerous nature. M27 will not do well in the ground, unless you have perefect soil & will keep it weed free.

Maybe the idea was to keep it from getting too big, I see plenty of themfor sale on M27, but makingappkle piueswith a few apples seems poiuntless to me ! I think M27 has a place on the patio,butreally for dessert types.

I consider MM106 to be pretty all purpose (although I suspect FB will disagree with that !) I don't do cordons,(I like family trees best) but I know people using MM106 for cordons, strp overs, fans etc and for scion donators (so planted very close) with sucess. My friend grows many MM106 trees in pots and is very sucessful. I think with good pruning I'd be happy with these. Although M9 might have been the one I'd go for if I was specifically going for cordons.

I would certainly try training the MM106 as part of you cordon but never bother with the M27

On pillar trees that will be closer, I think, to an area I'm creating for Leicestershire apples where I'm specifically planting close together to get several varieties in once space and allowing the competition to restrict the vigour, lots of grafting nurseries do this and on MM106

[FB.]

I'm generally with Mell on this - Bramley and Blenheim are difficult for growing as dwarfs because they don't like to form side branches and they are part-tip-bearers that are slow to start fruiting.
As Mell says: I can easily envisage them having a small number of long, far-apart, thick branches with few side shoots and few spurs.
With good pruning, they may be able to be shaped, but it will take a lot more work than your average variety.
I'm also not a fan of M27 as it needs the very best growing conditions and will not tolerate neglect.

You can regulate vigour by pruning, or by tying-down branches - summer (mid July) pruning controls vigour. Therefore, the MM106's get a hard summer prune while the M9 gets a light prune or no prune.

As Mell says: MM106 is usable for most purposes - generally strong enough to form small trees, but not so strong that it can't be used for cordons.
My dislike of MM106 that Mell hints at, is because MM106's final tree size is very dependent on the soil. On good soil with adequate moisture retention, it can make a half-standard. But on poor soils it tends to be stunted and sickly - my studies suggest that:

1.
Apple roots only grow when there is adequate moisture.
2.
MM106 roots are slower to start growing after rainfall.
3.
MM106 roots eventually grow quite quickly if the soil remains moist - after a long lag period.
4.
MM106 will not tolerate surface water.

So, you can see that in poorer soils, MM106 will not grow before the soil has dried, whereas on good soils, MM106 roots will grow quite rapidly.
However, if the soil is too wet, MM106 gets crown and root rot.

But, as I say: many people will be able to use MM106 very successfully (just not me!).

[Mell]

BTW MM106 seems to do well on Leicestershire clays & I think some of the underlting geology runs to Bristol, not sure how surface it is though without looking it up !

[FB.]

Yes, I imagine that the clay soil in your area helps to retain moisture and fertility.
Add the fact that you get an ideal amount of rainfall and I can see why MM106 would thrive in the central parts of the country, or any western parts that aren't prone to waterlogging.

In the East, there are many areas of sandy soil (poor moisture retention, low fertility) and the rainfall is only about two-thirds of what apple trees ideally need.

[Mell]

Yes, I imagine that the clay soil in your area helps to retain moisture and fertility.
Add the fact that you get an ideal amount of rainfall and I can see why MM106 would thrive in the central parts of the country, or any western parts that aren't prone to waterlogging.

In the East, there are many areas of sandy soil (poor moisture retention, low fertility) and the rainfall is only about two-thirds of what apple trees ideally need.

Yes where I am is supposedly more ideal than the rest of Leics too

Yes East esp excoastal areas are tough on trees, still think a sandy type rootstock from outside Europe might be your answer

[fevvers]

Thank you so much for the advice,

The two trees on mm106 and the Redlove will go in as cordons, but think I may donate the two cookers on M27 to a local community garden...I have limited space at home for pots and weed-free is something I aspire to rather than always achieve on my plot.


Any suggestions for cookers or dual purpose apples that aren't tip bearers that would like to be happy in a mild damp climate, and should I now stick with mm106 or buy further ones on m9.

Thanks again

Diane

[FB.]

MM106 is probably a better choice than M9, since M9 still requires quite a lot of care. But you can use different rootstocks to balance the overall vigour of the scion/rootstock combination.
With good pruning, you may be able to get the M27 Bramley/Blenheim into a reasonable shape.

In addition to being cautious of tip-bearers, you may also want to rule out all triploids; triploids - which include Bramley and Blenheim - are usually much more vigorous and therefore not ideal to try to grow as restricted forms.

Some cooker/dual apples (many cookers sweeten to become eaters after storage) with above-average tolerance of damp and that can be trained into restricted forms:

Annie Elizabeth
Crawley Beauty
Grenadier
Golden Noble

[fevvers]

Hi again,

thought I'd update on what I finally went for,

now have a row of apple cordons, ashmeads kernal, fiesta, redlove era, meridian and golden noble.

Wondering how I can shoehorn more varieties onto my plot without the committee complaining I'm turning it into an orchard...

Thanks again for all the advice

[hailtryfan]

Hi again,

Wondering how I can shoehorn more varieties onto my plot without the committee complaining I'm turning it into an orchard...

Thanks again for all the advice

Stick in one of these and graft a different variety on each upright?

[seneca196]

Hello, I have revived your thread about mm106 apples as upright or oblique cordons, as I'm keen to know how you got on. I'm planning something similar and am curious as to your progress. An update and maybe a picture would be useful.
Thanks

[WendyC]

The OP hasn't visited the forum since November 2011 so I doubt you'll get an update. You could try a pm as I think you can set these up to automatically email too.

[fevvers]

Progress on cordongs

The mm106 cordons are now all at the top of the 6ft tall framwork, and are putting out rather vigorous side-growths which have tended to need a pruning about now, and then a second one at the end of the growing season. Last year the crops were pretty impressive with only the 'Redlove' letting the side down with a mere 5 apples, the maximum was the Meridian with 22. The Redlove is an M9, and not to the top yet.

I'll try to get a photo when I've pruned them - right now it just looks like a wall of leaves, I do have a website which features a pic or two of my cordons, though close ups rather than the whole spread, ( because that might show the weeds).

Think my general assessment would be that the mm106's are great and give fast results by need a bit more work to keep them in bounds.

( I haven't been on the forum, but I get emails from it if a post is added)

[seneca196]

Pictures would be great (don't worry about a few weeds and things looking a bit untidy - you're not alone in that!)

Just to clarify, which are the varieties on mm106? Your original posting mentioned a few different rootstocks, so just want to make sense of the progress of mm106. They should take a few years to give any decent fruit, whereas the m9 redlove would come into bearing earlier.

Did you put them in at an oblique angle or just standing upright? Always wondering whether there was a significant difference in fruit yields, even though the oblique idea seems right. The angle requires supports and wires to grow them and keep them slanted. What kind of supports do you have? A link to you website might be useful too.
Thanks