Apple Tree Spacing

[digon]

What planting separation do I need for my two new apple trees? I have a bush form M26 quinn familly tree which I intend to let grow to about 2.5m tall if possible. I also have a M9 Redlove maiden which I am about to plant close by the M26 and train in bush form as well, probably to about 2m tall if possible. I intend to graft lots of varieties onto both trees over the coming years if that makes any difference to the spread. Soil quality and drainage are average to good I would say.
The most I can separate them by is 2.8m trunk to trunk is this going to be enough?? Or should I try and eek out a bit more.

Dave

[FB.]

M9 to 2 metres height/spread on most soils, with most varieties as the scion, will take a very long time - if ever.
Likewise, M26 to 2.5m will take a long time.
The size guide given for most rootstocks is for the more vigorous varieties (e.g. Bramley) on fairly good soils. With average vigour varieties and average soils, the final tree size is much less. Something of low vigour, like D'Arcy Spice or Court Pendu Plat, grafted on M9 would probably never be more than a short stick with a few small side branches.

Closer spacing isn't necessarily a problem as the roots will eventually meet and at that point, the competition for nutrients and water will slow them down dramatically.
I've seen seedling rootstock trees (considered to be twice as vigorous as M26 and three times as vigorous as M9) planted at 3m spacing and cropping fantastically well; the "stress" of being slightly cramped caused them to produce excellent fruit in large quantities. A little bit of stress is good for fruit production and quality, but bad for growth.

Additionally, it is far easier to keep a vigorous tree small (by summer pruning), than to make a weak tree grow quickly.
Summer (July) pruning of new shoots removes the growth for that season, reduces growth the following season and increases fruit production.

Have a mooch around this tree size estimator: > here <

[digon]

Thanks FB.
I've looked at quite a few size estimation pages and most say 2.4 - 3m for M26. I hadn't realized they where based on vigorous varieties.
I think I may graft the Redlove over onto M26 as two at 2m high would be the ideal. Is it usual for the spread of the branches to equal the height for bush forms?
Is there anywhere that sells three year old M26 rootstocks? to give a quicker start.

Dave

[FB.]

I think that most size estimates are based on reasonably vigorous varieties so that they slightly over-state the final size, since the owners of modern small gardens don't want to be overwhelmed by what was supposed to be just a small tree.

You'll be unlikely to find M26 rootstock older than one year. But you could try Blackmoor or Deacons....or you could buy a bargain-priced tree from a discount store and re-graft the main branches.

Height and spread will generally be about the same.
However, each variety has its own growth habit.
Some varieties are very upright - being twice as tall as they are wide.
Others are very spreading - being about 1.5x as wide as they are tall.
Additionally, some varieties are very free-branching (forming attractive trees that don't need much pruning), while others need heavy pruning to encourage branches (otherwise they may become long, straggly, with few branches).
Further still, some varieties are quite compact, with short distances between branches, while others are quite open, with long distances between branches.

Good pruning in the early years (while forming the main branch structure) can turn apples into almost any shape or size you like. Most people make the mistake of planting an apple tree and not giving it "formative pruning" in the early years, therefore ending up needing to do a lot of pruning in later years, making a messy-looking tree where large branches have had to be removed and dozens of shoots sprout from the pruning cut in a dense mass.

[Loudbarker1]

I have just looked at the Orange pippn site recomended by FB. It's fabulous! As well as the size estimator, there is a page for each variety that includes estimates of heights by root stock and soil quality. Who could ask for more!?

[Mell]

....or you could buy a bargain-priced tree from a discount store and re-graft the main branches.

Inmy experance this can be pretty hit & miss as thetrees tend to be kept insideand grafts tend to fail in the first year. So this method tends to be useful only after one year. So you might be better to just get a healthy tree or roottock and go on from there. Adams Apples is my fav supplier as the trees are very healthy & priced well IMHO

I'm growning some trees very close together (approx 1.5-2m) on MM106, to deliberatly keep then small, whilst still fruiting & giving scion. Most nuseries keep their mother trees this way & it iseasier for me than lots of pots which would be the alternative.