Apple tree for Co.Durham(North East)

[Macka]

Hello fellow and more experienced gardeners
I am just a novice when it comes to apple trees. I have planted 2 trees(Discovery & Cox orange pippin) almost 4 years ago. Discovery is doing ok, I was hoping for more apples, but at least I get some(mind you, those few I get are very tasty)
Cox orange is lazy, except for sprouting leaves, it doesn't do much else. So I have decided to pull it out this spring and replace with another variety. My problem lies here, I am not sure which one is suitable and a good resistant cropper for up here in the North East of England (bit cold and windy at times).
I know this forum is full of gardening geniuses who will be able to point me into a right direction.
Please help, I am just scared that I will again buy another unsuitable variety and will end up (again) disappointed.
Macela

[FB.]

While Cox's is often difficult to grow, if it isn't suffering from disease, it may just need more time to settle in. I certainly detect a hint of impatience on your part, rather than the tree being troublesome.
Your choice of rootstock and the age at which the tree was bought will affect when the treee starts to crop heavily. In all buy the very richest, moisture-retaining soils and favourable sites, it will take the trees at least couple of years to settle and grow a good root system.
However, Cox's is generally an unpredictable cropper that rarely produces a heavy crop. In many parts of the coutry it is notorious for being susceptible to almost all diseases.

If you replace the Cox's, will you be wanting a cooker, eater, dual-purpose?
Do you want them to ripen early, mid, or late season? Do you want lates that ripen in storage?
Presumably you want to grow the trees without chemicals, so good disease resistance is important to you?
Is your climate particularly troubled by certain problems, pests or diseases?
I'm guessing frost and wind, but I assume that your climate is not unusually wet (normally the West of the UK is wettest).
How large do you want the tree/bush to get?
How good is your soil? How deep? What's your subsoil?

[Macka]

Hiya FB, thank you for your reply.
My apple trees are M9 rootstock(and that's the size I would like to continue with) and when I was buying them the advice i got was that they should start producing at least an apple or two by year 3. Discovery is fine, not many apples but at least I get to try some.
When I was doing more reading on orange pippin cox(not that long ago) this tree was not advised for young inexperienced gardeners like myself and apparently is more suitable for south. On the top of it, I seem to always have brown spots on the leaves and even my following of the "how to keep your tree healthy" tips does not cure this.

If my garden was bigger, I would keep it and plant another one, but unfortunately I am restricted by size of my land a bit ( I need some left for our boy to play on) so hoping to get a new one.(In fact, if anyone wants my cox tree, they can come and collect it)

Unfortunately I have no idea if or what diseases are in my area because no-one has any fruit around me. The only thing I did notice were some caterpillars rolled in my leaves(I have removed them) and those brown leaves I mentioned above.

I would like to get a nice eating apple, early or mid season because from mid october the weather gets quite nasty up here, very windy and frosty in mornings.
Soil seems to be good, goes deep, moist and don't have problem to grow anything else.

You are right, I would prefer not to use any chemicals, so please if you or anyone can give any further advice, I would really welcome your help.

[FB.]

The brown spots on your Cox's will be the fungal disease "scab", which Cox's is quite prone to - you may find that it causes the fruits to split and rot. You'd need a number of regular sprays each year to keep it healthy. You may be right in getting rid of the Cox, but I'd suggest re-grafting to another variety, to save wasting the rootstock.

Personally, my experiences have shown that M9 is a very weak rootstock that is not much able to "fend for itself", unless grafted with a very vigorous variety that boosts the vigour.
M9 (and even more so for M27) needs rich, moisture-retaining soil and no competition from other plants.
Its roots snap easily, so it may need support.

Rootstock M26 is a much better substitute that can handle only average growing conditions, tolerates a little neglect (and recovers better from damage) and will tolerate some competition from other plants nearby.
M26's roots are less brittle than M9, although more brittle than the more vigorous rootstocks.
M26 trees are easy to control and can be grown as cordons, small bushes and so on.

Here's a link to an apple tree size estimation calculator:
> Link <


Regarding good varieties, here's something that I posted on another topic about a week ago - based on my own trees (my trees have been selected for a good mix of special qualities).

Score out of five (5 is very good/very late, 4 is quite good/quite late, 3 is average/middle, 2 is quite poor/quite early, 1 is very poor/very early etc).

Ideal pollination would be between two varieties flowering at the same time, but adjacent flowering groups will often pollinate. Crab apples and trees in other peoples gardens can also serve as pollinators.
Related apple varieties may not be good pollinators of each other - and a Cox certainly won't pollinate another Cox because they think that they are the same tree!

But don't hold me responsible if they behave differently in your soil or climate!
Some varieties are more prone to problems in certain areas due to differences in soil nutrients and climate - especially areas where the variety is common and the diseases have had decades of time to become well-adapted to attack it.


Laxton's Epicure:
Scab 3
Mildew 3
Canker 2
Pests 3
Flowering time 3
Frost 4
Pollinator 3
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 4
Reliability 5
Storage 1
Vigour 2

James Grieve
Scab 3
Mildew 5
Canker 2
Pests 4
Flowering time 1-2 (long flowering)
Frost 5
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 5
Reliability 5
Storage 2
Vigour 3

Plum Vite:
Scab 5
Mildew 3
Canker 4
Pests 2
Flowering time 2
Frost 2
Pollinator 3
Fruit quality 3
Crop size 3
Reliability 3
Storage 1
Vigour 4

Worcester Pearmain
Scab 3
Mildew 5
Canker 2
Pests 2
Flowering time 3
Frost 5
Pollinator 5
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 4
Reliability 5
Storage 2
Vigour 2

Ard Cairn Russet
Scab 4
Mildew 3
Canker 3
Pests 4
Flowering time 3
Frost 3
Pollinator 3
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 3
Reliability 3
Storage 3
Vigour 3

Bountiful
Scab 3
Mildew 5
Canker 3
Pests 4
Frost 4
Flowering time 2-3 (long flowering)
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 2
Crop size 5
Reliability 5
Storage 3
Vigour 2

Jupiter
Scab 4
Mildew 4
Canker 3
Pests 4
Flowering time 3
Frost 3
Pollinator 1 (triploid)
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 5
Reliability 2
Storage 3
Vigour 4

Spartan
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 3
Pests 5
Flowering time 3
Frost 4
Pollinator 5
Fruit quality 3
Crop size 4
Reliability 4
Storage 3
Vigour 3

Belle de Boskoop
Scab 5
Mildew 4
Canker 4
Pests 4
Flowering time 2
Frost 3
Pollinator 1 (triploid)
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 3
Reliability 3
Storage 5
Vigour 4

Court Pendu Plat
Scab 4
Mildew 4
Canker 3
Pests 4
Flowering time 5
Frost 4
Pollinator 1
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 3
Reliability 4
Storage 4
Vigour 1

Crawley Beauty
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 4
Pests 5
Flowering time 5
Frost 4
Pollinator 1
Fruit quality 2
Crop size 5
Reliability 4
Storage 4
Vigour 2

D’Arcy Spice
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 4
Pests 4
Flowering time 2
Frost 5
Pollinator 2
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 2
Reliability 2
Storage 5
Vigour 1

Edward VII
Scab 4
Mildew 3
Canker 3
Pests 3
Flowering time 4
Frost 4
Pollinator 2
Fruit quality 5
Crop size 2
Reliability 3
Storage 5
Vigour 3

Norfolk Beefing
Scab 4
Mildew 3
Canker 3
Pests 3
Flowering time 3
Frost 3
Pollinator 3
Fruit quality 5
Crop size 4
Reliability 3
Storage 5
Vigour 4

Tydeman’s Late Orange
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 3
Pests 3
Flowering time 3
Frost 5
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 4
Reliability 3
Storage 4
Vigour 4

Annie Elizabeth
Scab 4
Mildew 3
Canker 4
Pests 4
Flowering time 4
Frost 4
Pollinator 2
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 4
Reliability 4
Storage 5
Vigour 4

Beauty of Bath
Scab 4
Mildew 4
Canker 3
Pests 2
Flowering time 2
Frost 2
Pollinator 3
Fruit quality 3
Crop size 3
Reliability 3
Storage 1
Vigour 4

Brownlees Russet
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 4
Pests 4
Flowering time 2
Frost 2
Pollinator 2
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 3
Reliability 3
Storage 4
Vigour 2

Discovery
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 3
Pests 2
Flowering time 2
Frost 5
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 4
Reliability 4
Storage 2
Vigour 2

Egremont Russet
Scab 4
Mildew 4
Canker 4
Pests 4
Flowering time 2
Frost 4
Pollinator 2
Fruit quality 5
Crop size 4
Reliability 3
Storage 3
Vigour 2

Fiesta
Scab 3
Mildew 4
Canker 2
Pests 5
Flowering time 3
Frost 5
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 3
Crop size 5
Reliability 4
Storage 3
Vigour 2

Grenadier
Scab 5
Mildew 4
Canker 5
Pests 4
Flowering time 3
Frost 3
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 5
Crop size 5
Reliability 4
Storage 2
Vigour 2

Howgate Wonder
Scab 3
Mildew 4
Canker 3
Pests 4
Flowering time 3
Frost 4
Pollinator 3
Fruit quality 3
Crop size 5
Reliability 4
Storage 4
Vigour 4

Red Devil
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 3
Pests 2
Flowering time 2
Frost 4
Pollinator 4
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 4
Reliability 4
Storage 2
Vigour 2

Reverend Wilks
Scab 4
Mildew 5
Canker 4
Pests 4
Flowering time 2
Frost 3
Pollinator 2
Fruit quality 5
Crop size 4
Reliability 2
Storage 2
Vigour 1

Saturn
Scab 5
Mildew 4
Canker 3
Pests 3
Flowering time 2
Frost 3
Pollinator 5
Fruit quality 4
Crop size 5
Reliability 4
Storage 3
Vigour 3

[Snadger]

Hi Macka

I wouldn't give up on your cox's yet. I am just up the road from you and mine fruits really well with mahoosive fruit last year.
Mine was only a cheapo from Aldi planted in a cordon on my allotment.

I just wonder whether your apple tree is planted in a part of your plot that is susceptable to frost with a micro climate causing a frost pocket? This would affect the pollination methinks? Your Discovery is one of the recommended pollinators for Cox so that shouldn't be a problem.
The other thing is that its not unknown for fruit trees to be 'mixed up' at the nursery and if it wasn't actually a Cox apple, there may not be a pollinator for it?
Good luck with whatever you decide to do

[Macka]

Gentlemen thank you for finding the time to reply and advise further.
I have read carefully your posts and done some more research on the web, I also went to my local garden centre for a bit of gardening fix cos I am having withdrawal symptoms from not being able to dig, de-weed, admire and enjoy my garden properly:-D

I have decided to go for M26 rootstock this time and the variety I am going to plant is called Katy.
It is supposed to be a variety well suited for colder climates, tolerating weather changes well and reasonably disease resistant. Its compatible with my Discovery too.
I have ordered 2 year old bare root and should have it by next Saturday.
Some sites suggest to prune 2 year old tree hard after planting, so would you say that's the way to go?

Have you heard anyone screaming and warning against planting Katy variety?
thank you,
Marcela

[FB.]

Katy on M26 seems like a good choice.
No major problems with disease and very fertile - and excellent parentage for handling the cold (James Grieve x Worcester Pearmain).
Katy and Discovery will partially pollinate each other, but are not the perfect pollination partners; Worcester Pearmain is Discovery's mother and Katy's father, so they are half-siblings. Discovery's parents were Worcester Pearmain x Beauty of Bath.
But pollination should not be a problem - don't let it worry you.

You may find that Katy's a little larger than your average M26 tree, but not uncontrollably so. Extra vigour can be useful in cool climates and shorter growing seasons.
Katy was bred in Northern Europe, with the intention of tolerating hard winters and cool climates.

As for whether to prune after planting......

I prefer not to cause any further "shock" to the young tree, so all I do is snip off the very top bud or two from each branch - this is because some varieties will fruit on the tips, but a young trees trunk will be permanently bent by the weight of even a single fruit. Additionally, the young tree needs to put energy into growing for a couple of years. Fruiting takes a lot of the energy out of a young tree and should be discouraged.

[Macka]

HI FB,
I am really pleased you thought my choice of Katy variety is a good one, thank you
I have received my tree this morning, looks healthy.
The thing is.. it's just a long cane (about 1.4m long) without any side shots/branches, only lots of buds. My trees (before) were potted so I could see the structure but I have no experience with bare root being as bare as this

So if you have bit of a time, I would need some more of kind instructions
When I plant my tree tomorrow+stake (will soak it over night) do I snip the top off by about 2 buds?

The little picture attached to my tree says, it should be about 4m/8feet tall!! in 10 years?
Is this right? I thought M26 goes up to (roughtly) 3 meters.
Is it possible to keep tree smaller (about the 3m height) without causing damage or affecting fruiting?

Your reply above reminded me of a question I was forgetting to ask, the tip fruiting.
In the past, I was looking if my apples were tip fruiting but didn't find any answer, so please would you know which group Discovery and Katy belong to or where I can find this info for a future reference?
Thank you again,
Marcela

[FB.]

Don't soak the tree in water all night. You could suffocate the roots, which then get invaded by root-rotting fungi. No more than about four hours in the water (preferably tap water). I have lost enough apple trees to root rots as a result of prolonged water damage.
Give the tree a soak in water for this afternoon or evening for a few hours, remove from water during the night, but put back in water while you get your tools ready and hole dug.

Dig a hole big enough for the whole root system. Fork the bottom and sides of the hole that that it's not smooth and compact - otherwise the roots won't grow well in the soil that has been compacted by the spade.

Make a compact mound of soil in the middle of the hole.
Drive the stake in, if needed. A single-stemmed tree may not need a stake.

Place your tree on the mound, making sure that the graft is a couple of inches above ground. Less than an inch or more than four inches may cause various problems in later life.

Spread the trees lower roots down the sides of the mound and cover them with soil.

Next spread out the trees middle roots and cover with loose soil.

Finally spread out the trees upper roots a couple of inches below the surface and cover with soil.

Water well (but not so that it's waterlogged).

I would lightly "tip" the branches - as you say, remove the top bud, and consider that whichever bud remains at the top is likely to continue the growth, with a slight change of direction to the side that the bud is located, due to the bud being on the side, rather than the tip.
Prune to an outward-facing bud.

Once the tree is growing well, try to prune so that the uppermost three buds will grow in the desired directions. Also bear in mind that lower buds grow out a greater angle, whereas higher buds try to continue the general direction of the stem.
It is also possible to prune to a certain bud, but later remove the branch or continuation that it made, in favour of the bud inderneath.

..................

The label says 4m/8ft.

4m = 13ft
8ft = 2.5m

Someone's made a c@ck-up with converting metres and feet.
There are 3 1/4 feet in a metre (or 0.3m in a foot).

I would expect your tree (bush) to reach about 8-9ft, variable by a foot or two, depending on soil quality and climate.

It is possible to keep trees at as little has half of the size that they want to grow to. For example: MM106 can be used for cordons, bushes or half-standards. There's quite a size difference between a cordon and a half-standard!
Once the tree is up to size, hard summer pruning (midJuly) of the soft shoots will stop growth and enhance fruit buds for next year. But don't do this to a young tree because growth may stop completely with the shock.

........................

Regarding tip bearing:

Discovery is a partial tip-bearer. Not a problem though, because it produces plenty of spurs too.

Cox is a spur bearer.

Katy is mostly a spur-bearer.

..................

[bishop]

hello macka, i live near durham, as fb said, James Grieve x Worcester Pearmain do very good in our colder summers, had these for 3 years i get loads of apples, james grieve is my fave, i have 2 of each,

[Macka]

planted my Katy following your advice but it was covered in snow the following morning, hope it won't do any harm thanks again for talking me through step by step.

bishop, I am glad you replied sharing your experience. You are only a stone away so will keep those two varieties in my mind when I go for another apple for my front garden.(work(mess) in progress right now)

[FB.]

planted my Katy following your advice but it was covered in snow the following morning, hope it won't do any harm thanks again for talking me through step by step.

Katy was bred in Scandinavia, specifically as one of the few apples that will grow successfully in their bitterly cold climate and short growing season.

It'll take a lot more than a British winter to hurt Katy, while the M26 rootstock is one of the hardiest of the British rootstocks.
M26 also doesn't leaf-out too early, nor wait too long to drop its leaves in the autumn.

Katy/M26 should be a good combination for cool climates.