Growing fruit trees in Cambridgeshire soil

[BeatTheSeasons]

I am starting this thread to discuss problems with and solutions for growing fruit trees in Cambridgeshire soil.

Here are some comments from FB on this subject, which were posted in another thread.

Plums aren't easy to grow in this area, due to low rainfall and light/shallow soil. Plums need a good moisture-retentive soil.
The trees fail to thrive in poorer/dry soils - they are very reluctant to grow roots in such poor/dry soil as is found in or near Cambridge.

The fruits often grow only slowly in this area (and rarely become large-sized). If we get a spell of heavy rain, the fruits then try to "catch up", but grow too fast in their hunger for water, and subsequently split and rot.

As a result, I abandoned plums and I would not recommend them close to Cambridge. Pears too.
I dug-out my last plum tree a few months ago and it went to a new owner in Cambourne, where the soil is better.
It was a Victoria (St.J.A rootstock).
It was planted in my best spot and I did all I could to make it grow.
It managed a pathetic 5ft height/spread in ten years despite my best efforts, whereas it should have reached twice that "according to the book".

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I can't offer any suggestions for a good plum tree for this area.
However, I would recommend that you take a good look at your soil:

Depth of topsoil.
(ideally needs to be 2-3ft; I have 1ft).

The subsoil (I have fast-draining gravel that quickly drains away moisture, as do many parts of North Cambridge. Other parts - South and West of Cambridge - have impenetrable chalk).

Quality of topsoil.
A well-balanced loam, with equal amounts of sand, clay and organic material. Much of Cambridge is loamy sand, or loamy chalk.

The flat lay of the land and persistent breeze is very drying to the soil (hence all the windmills to the North and East).

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If I ever tried to grow plums again, I'd go for the absolute strongest rootstocks that I could find (such as Brompton). They would probably reach about half the "expected" size and make a nice bush - around 10-12ft.

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I started with apples on M26/MM106, pears on Quince A and plums on St.Julien A. The intention was small half-standard/large bush trees, around 10ft (3 metres). Only the odd one has exceeded 6ft. Most grow only 4-6 inches per year, no matter how hard I try. Poor root growth predisposes them to other diseases.
Nowadays, I am using a mixture of "very vigorous" MM111, M25, Pyrus and seedling rootstocks, to attain 10ft/3m trees. They grow about 1ft per year when young.

It is far easier to reduce the vigour of a strong-growing tree than it is to increase the vigour of a weak tree. I plan to grow a cordon on "very vigorous" M25 rootstock, to prove a point.

I really urge you to investigate your soil, before potentially falling into the same pitfalls that cost me many years of blood, sweat and tears. I originally went "by the book", which did not apply to this unusual area.

[BeatTheSeasons]

When I dig over an area of ground I generally find what seems like good quality soil for the first spade's depth. Much of the second spade's depth is the same, but towards the bottom of this second spade is soil akin to crumbling concrete, much lighter in colour.

[BeatTheSeasons]

I guess very localised factors are important. I am in an area of 1930s housing that was built on the grounds of one old house. At the bottom of my long, thin garden is an old, gnarled apple tree that produces abundant but mostly diseased apples. There are other apple trees in the gardens that we back on to, and I believe this area may have been an orchard in the past.

[BeatTheSeasons]

If I ever tried to grow plums again, I'd go for the absolute strongest rootstocks that I could find (such as Brompton). They would probably reach about half the "expected" size and make a nice bush - around 10-12ft.
...........

Nowadays, I am using a mixture of "very vigorous" MM111, M25, Pyrus and seedling rootstocks, to attain 10ft/3m trees. They grow about 1ft per year when young.

It is hard to find trees on these rootstocks. Can you recommend a good nursery a little further afield, or perhaps mail order/website?

[FB.]

Soil depends where you are.

The old Chivers site at Histon/Impington is good soil (NorthWest edge of Cambridge).

The old sand/gravel quarries at Landbeach and Milton is poor soil (NorthEast and North). There may be clay subsoil under the sand/gravel layers and under the water table.

Cherryhinton/Fulbourn are on the edge of the chalky soil (South of Cambridge.)

The soil is very variable in quality, depth and subsoil.

Just to the North of Cambridge, is the lowest rainfall region in the UK - close to Waterbeach. (note the name "beach" - perhaps implying an ancient, sandy shoreline of the fens that stopped at North Cambridge).
All round Cambridge is low-rainfall. More specifically; there may be lots of days with light showers that damp the dust, but few days during summer have rain sufficient to penetrate more than half-inch into the soil.

When I had to replace a fence in summer 2008 (by no means an unusually dry year), the soil was completely dry as far down as I had to dig for the fenceposts (2-3ft).
..............................


Take a look at aerial pictures from google and you will see hints of the soil colour:

Google Maps

[BeatTheSeasons]

Another useful post from FB when I was first asking about growing apples in Cambridge:

Based on my observations (I used to live in Cambridge, have friends in Cambridge and I now live a few miles out of Cambridge), the soil is below average - quite shallow and quite dry as a result of either gravel or chalky subsoil and the fact that Cambridge is the lowest rainfall city in Britain.

In my experience, this can mean that apple trees grow much smaller (more precisely; they grow more slowly). If you plan to grow the tree in a lawn, the competition from grass will also reduce growth rate by competing for water and nutrients.

If you have soil like myself, my friends or like my old addresses, then you may as well throw away all the text books that tell you how big your tree will get as many of the published figures are for trees in fairly good soil, that are sprayed to prevent pests or diseases.
Pests (ranging from aphids to caterpillars) will either suck the nutrients out of the tree, or eat the light-gathering leaves. Both actions slow down the growth.
Diseases, such as scab or mildew, will damage some of the leaves, again reducing the light-gathering ability of the tree.
Throw in a below-average soil and lack of penetrating rainfall and you'll soon find that "dwarf" or "semi-dwarf" rootstocks have no vigour once the pests and diseases have taken their toll.
Additionally, most apple books don't mention much about "powdery mildew", but I can assure you that in this area, it is a crippling disease and varieties without some natural resistance will be a lost cause unless you plan to spray.

If the grass remains green for most of the summer, then I'd suggest MM106 rootstock wuld be OK.
If your grass is prone to dying off for most of the summer, then you may want a slightly stronger rootstock, such as MM111 or possibly M25.

There is a well-stocked and very competitively priced fruit tree nursery near to Fordham, called "Simpsons".
42 Station Road, Fordham, Ely, Cambs - CB7 5LW, tel 01638 720194
Note that there are two different nurseries within a mile of each other, so make sure you get the correct one with the big stock of fruit trees!
I think that Simpson's may have connections with, or be the same company as this one:
> Website link here <

The largest rootstock that you'll normally encounter is MM106, which has the benefit of being fairly resistant to woolly aphids, which, in this area, are a serious and disfiguring pest that make the branches twisted, knobbly and split.

Simpson's stock a good range of trees, including many "bush" trees, a few half-standards and the occasional "standard".
Remember that once the nursery has "stopped" the tree to cause side branching, the trunk height is locked-in unless you gradually prune off lower branches as the tree grows.

I don't think that pollination would be a problem, since there are plenty of apples or crab apples around that should pollinate your tree. If, after a few years, the flowers are still not turning into fruits, then you could consider a cordon to act as pollinator, but I really don't think that you'll have a problem with pollination.

While I can't remember which varieties you may find, I'd suggest that if you go for MM106 rootstock, that you choose quite a vigorous variety to ensure adequate strength to compete with the grass.

As for varieties.....
I'd go for something quite vigorous and with at least average resistance to disease.
Varieties that I'd choose to reach 3-4m for rootstock MM106 in the "typical" conditions of this area (your conditions may not be typical!): in alphabet order:

Howgate Wonder
Jupiter
Tydeman's Late Orange
Winter Gem


You may find this tree size estimator to be of value for rootstock/variety/soil/size estimation:

Fruit tree mature height calculator

It is also easier to reduce the vigour of a slightly-too-strong tree than it is to increase the vigour of a tree that is too small/slow-growing.

I apologise if I am breaking forum rules by posting the link.

[FB.]

It is hard to find trees on these rootstocks. Can you recommend a good nursery a little further afield, or perhaps mail order/website?

You mention some old apple trees.
How large and old are they?
They will be on rootstocks at least MM106 strength and more likely MM111 or M25 equivalent.
Quite possibly they will be on the old hyper-vigorous "crab" stock.

Remember that all trees continue to grow until they die. A tree that has rarely been pruned will always be much larger.

Don't be deceived by the size of an unpruned tree: much of it is dead or bare wood. A well-pruned tree is considerably smaller. Count on well-tended and productive trees being about three-quarters the size of an unpruned tree.

I would suggest the following nurseries for good quality trees on vigorous rootstocks (not all nurseries offering vigorous rootstocks sell trees of adequate quality IMO):

Keepers

R.V.Roger

Adam's Apples

Blackmoor

...

I found that few nurseries actually believe me when I tell them about my soil problems. I'd love to see the arrogant orchardists turn up with their sweet little M9 or M26 tree, only to watch it rapidly wither away under the strain of poor soil, low rainfall and the pests and disease attacks that come with a no-spray routine.

There is a tree size estimator here:

> Link <

My soil certainly falls into the "poor" category. MM106 about 6-7ft in my soil.
I would expect most areas around Cambridge to be "below average".

Growing in a location where the ground is shaded helps keep the soil moister for longer, so improves growth rate.

[FB.]

Perhaps you should try the "medium vigour" (MM106, St.J.A, Q.A) rootstocks first, and upgrade to a stronger rootstock if they fail to grow within the next few years?

I'd hate to get moaned at further down the line because your soil turned out to be better than expected and your tree is growing too fast!

[FB.]

One final thought (then I'll stop cluttering your thread)....

Where growing conditions are difficult, it would be better to have a slow-growing variety on a strong rootstock, rather than a strong-growing variety on a slow-growing rootstock.
In a low-rainfall area, you want strong roots that can quickly grow into the wet soil to get the water before the soil dries again.

For example, in the tree size estimator, enter:

Rootstock MM111, variety "slightly small" (e.g. Falstaff)
Rootstock MM106, variety "average" (e.g. Golden Delicious)
Rootstock M26, variety "very large" (e.g. Bramley)

In below average soil, all come out around 9ft.

Generally speaking, the tree with the strongest root system will usually be the one that copes best in difficult conditions.
Once established, MM111 is legendary for its drought resistance.
Although not quite as vigorous as M25 or seedling roots, MM111 is the most drought resistant rootstock - due to producing abnormally large numbers of of very fine roots that quickly soak up water.

[FB.]

By a lucky chance, I happened to find this nursery (I've never dealt with them before), apparently with some excellent varieties in stock on MM111:

Reads Nursery

I'd especially recommend Golden Noble or Red Falstaff.

[BeatTheSeasons]

If I plant an apple tree grown on MM106 rootstock and it only grows to about 6ft high, will I also get a poor quality crop, or just fewer apples because they are on a smaller tree? Or will the lack of moisture and general weakness of the tree badly affect the crop?

I do find it surprising when you say that plums cannot be grown here when there are greengages that were bred in this area (Cambridge Gage and Willingham for example).

Also Cambourne is only 10 miles from Cambridge, so I guess it must be local factors again.

Hence, I suppose, the need to take a close look at my soil.

[BeatTheSeasons]

Finally managed to find a Tydeman's Late Orange on M25 rootstock, although it's a half standard
Apple Tydemans Late Orange | Buy Apple Trees | Purchase Apple Fruit Trees

Still no luck with this variety on M111 rootstock.

Simpsons do have it bare rooted on MM106.

[FB.]

I have a number of MM106's, which are several years old or more.
Only one or two of them have grown strong enough roots to give a decent crop.
Most of them produce fruits smaller than golf balls, unless I water them regularly during the summer.

I have a Edward VII on MM106 that is several years old. I had been giving this tree special attention - trying to get it to become a half-standard for planting in a final position at a later time - but its progress is too slow for my liking.
It is about 7ft tall and 4ft wide, with several good side branches that start about 1m from the ground. The lower ones could easily be removed, to give a clear trunk of about 1.5m.
It is larger than anything that you'll get "mail order". It is also an attractive shape.

It is yours for free if you'd like it - I'll even deliver it to you (perhaps this weekend?) as you can't be more than 20 minutes from me.

If it fails to grow after a few years, I'm sure that I could assist with something a little stronger; I have several "reserve" trees and newly-grafted baby trees at the moment that I will give away once they are no longer required - including (in rootstock order):

D'Arcy Spice M26
Saturn M26
Alfriston M116
Edward VII MM106
Egremont Russet MM111
Ard Cairn Russet MM111
Discovery MM111
First and Last MM111
Hambledon Deux Ans MM111
D'Arcy Spice MM111
Norfolk Beefing MM111
Edward VII M25
Liberty M25
Howgate Wonder M25
Court Pendu Plat M25
Plum Vite M25

[FB.]

Finally managed to find a Tydeman's Late Orange on M25 rootstock, although it's a half standard
Apple Tydemans Late Orange | Buy Apple Trees | Purchase Apple Fruit Trees

Still no luck with this variety on M111 rootstock.

Simpsons do have it bare rooted on MM106.

I think that you'll find Tydeman's Late Orange on M25 to be too vigorous for most garden purposes - even if the soil is quite poor, you're likely to reach at least 12ft when mature.
You may find that Tydeman's Late Orange on MM106 has enough vigour, since the scion and rootstock vigours combine to give the overall vigour.
T.L.O. is fairly vigorous, so on MM106 rootstock, it should match an average-vigour variety growing on MM111 rootstock, or a low-vigour variety growing on M25 rootstock.

For example - some typical sizes of one-year maidens:

D'Arcy Spice MM111: 2ft
D'Arcy Spice M25: 2.5ft
Court Pendu Plat MM111: 2.5ft
Court Pendu Plat M25: 3.5ft
Worcester Pearmain MM111: 3.5ft
Worcester Pearmain M25: 4.5ft
Tydeman's Late Orange MM111: 5ft
Hambledon Deux Ans MM111: 6ft
Edward VII M25: 5ft

In other words: just because the rootstock is vigorous, doesn't mean that the tree will grow rapidly, nor that it will reach a large size. the variety grafted onto the rootstock has a big influence on how fast and large the tree grows.

Have a fiddle with the tree size estimator.

[BeatTheSeasons]

You may find that Tydeman's Late Orange on MM106 has enough vigour, since the scion and rootstock vigours combine to give the overall vigour.

T.L.O. is fairly vigorous, so on MM106 rootstock, it should match an average-vigour variety growing on MM111 rootstock, or a low-vigour variety growing on M25 rootstock.

Have a fiddle with the tree size estimator.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that the estimator split apple varieties into their own vigour. That's very useful, and I think I will give the bare-rooted MM106 TLO from Simpsons a go.