Growing fruit trees in Cambridgeshire soil

[FB.]

BTS

Further to my comment "I could get a M25 tree to produce more and better fruit at an earlier age than any other rootstock." and "MM111 is not so keen to fruit early in life"

I would like to show an extract from a study (Parry, 1972) which I rediscovered today:

"...Quince C, the dwarfing rootstock for pear, appears to exert its dwarfing effect primarily through its effect on cropping.......trees on it grow vigorously in the first few years in the orchard before their growth is checked by heavy, precocious cropping....".......".....The size of apple trees on some relatively vigorous rootstocks may also be reduced to below their potential because they induce precocious cropping. This is particularly so for MM106 and M25........"


.

So it seems that I am not alone in finding that M25 can be vigorous, precocious and heavy cropping.

[FB.]

And when choosing a garden tree to sit under, consider:

What kind of shape does the tree naturally prefer to grow? Some make a "wine-glass" or "champagne glass" upright shape, while others make a "mushroom" or "umbrella" shape which tends to spread more than it goes up.

Attractive blossom. I find that, as a rough guide, part-tip-bearers are generally very attractive trees when in blossom (but pure tip bearers are not attractive) . Triploids often have larger-than-average flower size but also tend to be more vigorous.

Not too prone to disease - especially canker and woolly aphids - so that it can remain attractive and without need for major branch removal due to canker.

Mildew resistance is essential in our area if you don't plan to spray regularly. Wetter areas need scab resistance.

Also consider a variety with tough skin and/or some resistance to fungal fruit rots which will enter minor wounds on the fruit. This will avoid too many damaged apples rotting on the tree, which isn't attractive.

Consider a variety which is not prone to pests (especially wasps!). Summer eating apples are the most-damaged and tend to ripen (attract wasps) just when you'd like the shade in August. Late-ripening apples (October) or cookers will be less prone to pest damage. Thick-skinned varieties are more difficult for pests to break the skin. Thick-skinned apples often store very well through winter.

Consider a variety where the fruit "hangs well" on the tree (or at least not one which tends to drop its fruit easily) so that you don't get pelted with apples while sitting under it.

Consider a variety with smallish apples to avoid painful bumps on the head if you get hit by a windfall! A friend of ours in better soil near Haverhill has a huge Bramley which we enjoy the shade of - but you take your life into your hands on a windy day with big Bramley "windfall" apples bombing you from above!

[FB.]

BTS

I just asked my wife - who is only semi-knowledgeable but a useful "independent adjudicator" - what rootstock/scion she would grow (or recommend to friends) for the best half-standard (about 3-4 metres in height/spread) in our soil, based on what she has seen of my trees:

She said:
"Edward VII, M25 rootstock".

When asked why, she said:
"Because it grows well here and isn't particularly troubled by disease".

When asked about why she wouldn't recommend other trees' (including most of my other MM111's and M25's), she said:
"They don't grow fast enough".

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[MojoJojo]

(no need for street names, but the area name such as "Chesterton near the river" or "Arbury near the A14" would be very helpful).

This forced me to make my first post here - I live in Chesterton near the river.

We moved into our house about 18months ago. There was a big (30ft at a guess) Cherry tree. There was a good crop when we moved in, but we couldn't get much of it as the tree has been mostly forced over the neighbours fence by a large sycamore, and most of the branches were out of reach anyway. This year the fruit disappeared - a flock of birds must have noticed it. That pushed us into getting the cherry tree cut down along with the sycamore that was shading most of the garden.

We'd like to replace the cherry tree - the fruit we got the first year was really delicious. I wanted to avoid getting another tree that would get far too large for a smallish garden. After looking at the internet for awhile I had decided on getting a Sunburst variety on Colt rootstock.

Then I saw this thread and I am not sure again.

The old tree had grown far too big. I think it must been there before the previous owners so more than 15 years old. I've only dug about 2 spades depth down, and it seems a reasonably sandy soil (to my very inexpert eyes). I didn't find any change in the soil in those two spans.

Would you still recommend against using dwarf rootstock? After having spent a fair amount of time clearing up trees and plants that needed a lot more care than they had been given, I'm keen to avoiding planting something that could become a problem in future.

[FB.]

Cherries have some major advantages over apples, pears and plums in our soil/climate:

1.
Cherries have very strong root systems compared to similar-size apple/pear/plum trees.

2.
Cherries tolerate low-rainfall (although fruit splitting/rotting can happen with erratic rainfall which causes cherries to swell rapidly and burst after a long dry spell).

3.
Cherries will tolerate chalky or higher-pH soil than other fruit trees.

Most importantly - Cambridgeshire is the place of origin for many types of cherry. Cherries thrive here. Many of the streets in Cambridge are planted with cherry trees.

Regarding rootstock - you'd probably be better to go with Colt, but remember that some varieties of cherry (or any fruit for that matter) will make larger mature trees than others. Not all cherries on Colt will reach the same mature size, no matter what the armchair fruit growers tell you.
Also note that cherry trees are much fussier about needing specific pollination partners - although a few cherries are self-fertile.

I have never been a fan of cherry trees because without netting, the cherries simply end up feeding the birds. Worse still, cherries and pips are dropped from the rooftops making it intolerable to sit in the garden. Also the bird poo on washing and on cars. (I used to have a cherry out the front of my first house, which was in Northern Cambridge).

[FB.]

Forgot to mention: planting the new tree in the root zone of the old one could lead to "replant disease", which is a complex mixture of problems, including the nutrients required by that tree type having mostly been consumed by the old tree, plus the old trees roots will have soil-borne pests (such as nematodes) and diseases (such as fungi) atacking the old roots. These pests/diseases will be looking for a home after the death of their host, so will be quick to colonise a new tree of the same type. This can result in poor establishment, slow growth or even death of the newly planted tree.

You should plant the new tree well away from the old trees location. Alternatively, excavate a very large hole to plant the new tree (say 5ft wide and 2ft deep) and get rid of the diseased/depleted old soil, filling the hole with fresh soil from elsewhere in the garden.

Ultimately, in "replant" situations, it is sometimes necessary (and recommended) to use a vigorous rootstock which has enough vigour left after the pests/diseases have attacked it.

[MojoJojo]

Thanks for the advice.

I wasn't planning to plant in exactly the same place, but considering replant disease I might move it further away as well as moving some of the soil. Thanks again.

[Thorny]

Hi, this is an old post but thought you were probably still growing fruit trees! I have been searching for advice on growing fruit trees on poor sandy soil - no clay, little gravel, very little loam, mainly - just - sand! Acid, not chalky. I have got involved in a project planting community orchards in Suffolk and we can usually be given crappy bits of land, good soil is grabbed by those who can make a profit from it, well, fair enough. We would prefer trees that got pretty large, to avoid vandalism and minimise pruning. Crop will probably be juiced so picking is not such a problem. First, can you suggest fruit that would do well in poor soil and are very disease resistant? Second, do you actually have any trees that could be planted in our orchards?

[FB.]

Hi Thorny

You need rootstocks MM111 or M25 for apples, Brompton or Myrobalan for plums and Pyrus for pears.

The common "default" MM106, Quince A and St.Julien A rootstocks recommended by "experts" for half-standards is often severely stunted in drier soils.

Keepers nursery offer trees on suitably vigorous rootstocks:
Keepers Nursery UK | Fruit trees for sale | Buy Online | Mail order

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[BeatTheSeasons]

I took FB's advice and got hold of the tree I wanted on MM111 rootstock. So far it's growing well, although last year was very wet so let's see what happens in 2013.

By coincidence on Sunday I attended a pruning session at Trumpington Community Orchard in Cambridge. This is on an area of fairly shallow and poor soil, and all the trees are on the default MM106 rootstock. They didn't seem to have grown very much in the 4 years since they were planted, and I was told that the soil regularly dried out.

You also need to consider that, if an orchard is open to members of the public, accidental (hopefully not deliberate) damage will occur. So if you're going to see random branches broken off you don't want a rootstock that will cause the tree to grow very slowly.

[FB.]

I'm glad that your TLO-MM111 is doing well. I have the same combination (and a MM106-TLO).

The 111 manages a foot or so per year - growing about the same amount each year regardless of watering/rainfall or fertilising. The 106 manages a few inches in most years but managed several inches in 2012 due to the soil remaining damp most of the year (which is highly unusual here - often it is droughty, with no moisture even at 1-2ft depth by late summer).

I don't consider MM106 suitable for our usually-dry area and the often-light-sandy soils here, unless it is planted in a shady damp corner of the garden where the roots remain cool and moist all year. In such conditions it will grow the same as MM111 and make a half-standard.

MM106 is not as able to compete against grass and weeds as MM111 or M25; the latter two not usually needing any care after planting as they tend to be able to fend for themselves.
Many MM106's have died in East Anglian community orchards if not well-tended in their early years (a common problem is the excitement wears off and the trees are abandoned before MM106 can establish).

[BeatTheSeasons]

A pesty problem with my TLO - see picture.

Firstly, are these actually blackfly as all the books suggest they might be? They look nothing like the blackfly I get on broad beans and courgettes. They are more like "greyfly".

I've been blasting them with a hose for a couple of weeks and they keep coming back with a vengeance and causing all the leaves to shrivel up.

Any suggestions on the best way to deal with them and how much damage they might be doing?

Thanks a lot.

[FB.]

It's aphids.
This year is a very bad year.
Curiously, my two TLO never get attacked - it's as if the aphids will choose any other variety than TLO if they have the choice.

Blast them with a water pistol, or (as it's on vigorous MM111 rootstock) just let the tree endure the attack until the hoverfly and ladybird larvae arrive and start eating them.

Or cheat and spray with an aphid-killing chemical, of which there are many.

[BeatTheSeasons]

Well, here we can see the results of the sustained aphid attack on my Tydeman's Late Orange (MM111 rootstock) over the summer.

I didn't use any chemicals but kept spraying with a pressure hose every few days.

I guess for this winter's pruning I'm going to have to cut these misshapen branches right back.

(Meanwhile a Winter Gem and Spartan on M26 at my nearby allotment were completely left alone.)