Starting out

[Hassan]

I have two apple trees but after reading around i think i have a problem. At first i only had one tree from B&M's for £3.99 which i plan on making into a espalier (may be a bit ambitious since i have never grown anything before) but then i was told i have to have to if you want them to fruit, so i went and bought one from Aldi again for £3.99 .

My problem is will they pollinate each other or not? the one from B&M is a jonagold and the Aldi one is a bramley, i hear that both of them are not good pollinators will i have to get another tree or will i have to get two more?

[FB.]

Both Jonagold *and* Bramley are triploid.

Neither variety - nor any other triploid - is a good pollinator.

A suitable pollinator also needs to flower within -4 to +3 days.
Bramley is F12 and Jonagold F13 - both mid season.

However, you'll probably find that there will be sufficient apple trees (including crab apples) in nearby gardens or on the bees flight path to-and-from the nest.
I doubt that pollination will be a problem.
I would not bother to get another tree just yet. If, in a few years time, they are flowering heavily but not fruiting, then perhaps consider a pollinator.

Some people will simply re-graft the end of just one branch with a pollinator variety. If you need a piece to graft onto your trees in the future, I can send a few pencil-sized "scions" of a suitable pollinator through the post, if you send a SAE.
Or, for £3.99, you can buy one fomr wherever you got your current two trees!

You may also find that Bramley's blossom is particularly prone to frost damage, so that can explain poor pollination. Bramley is also fairly biennial (heavy crop every second year, light crop in between).


However, you may have a handful of problems to watch out for.....

Triploid varieties tend to be unusually vigorous; growing much faster than average each season and forming much larger than average trees when mature.
Bramley is *extremely* vigorous and is also very slow to start producing fruit. It is also a part tip bearer, so that hard pruning during winter time will remove much of the following season's fruit buds.

Additionally, hard winter pruning, or over-feeding of nitrogen to Bramley, will cause "bitter pit" in the fruits.


You may find that Jonagold may not ripen as well as hoped for in the UK climate - especially "up North"; Jonagold is a cross of two US varieties from a much warmer climate; I've yet to taste a half-decent UK-grown Jonagold.

Neither variety is particularly resistant to apple scab nowadays because they are so widely grown that the diseases have evolved to attack them (although Bramley still has good resistance to canker and mildew).
Scab can be a problem for organic growers - causing fruits to split and rot. Scab is worse in wet regions.
However, a variety that is not much grown in a particular region (such as Jonagold) may escape infection, due to no local strains suitable to attack it.

...........

But......even if they don't perform well (give them a try first), you can re-graft them with a different variety that is known to perform well in your area.

...........


Do you know what rootstock they're grafted onto?
I would guess MM106, even if there's no label. There might be a size guide that says 3-4 metres (assuming MM106).
Some rootstocks can be too weak or too strong for certain uses. MM106 is adaptable to most needs; cordons, espaliers, bushes and half-standards, depending on the vigour of the variety grafted onto the roots and depending on soil quality/depth and climate.

..........

From my notes (I could be wrong.....):

Jonagold's pollen incompatibility is 2,3,9 - F13
Bramley's pollen incompatibility is 1,7,19 - F12

A "one pollinator does both and itself" eliminates almost every easily-available variety out there that's suitable for Northern climate and flowers at about the same time!

However, if you feel the need for a pollinator, try:
Katy (Katja) - incompatibility 5,24 - F9
James Grieve - incompatibility 5,8 - F10
Tydeman's Early Worcester - incompatibility 24,25 - F12 (this variety would be my one-tree-pollinates-all because incompatibility 24 and 25 are very rare and therefore exceptionally good pollinators).

[Hassan]

Wow thanks for the all the info , i will be asking you more questions later on im sure.

Lol So i have picked two rubish trees that wont ripen, fruit or will die. I am still going to give them a go and see how it works out. I dont kow the rootstock as it was not on the lable, on the Bramley its said for size guide 5 to 25 meters i am growing them in pots so that should slow there growth a bit i think. I will be making them in to espaliers, can you see any problems in this?

[FB.]

5 to 25 metres. That's not very helpful of the retailer. Admittedly, much of the size of a tree depends on the type of pruning and when it is done.
I'd assume you have MM106 as it is (probably) the most widely used rootstock for home gardens.

Your trees might be fine. If you don't try, you won't know.

When buying a fruit tree, people tend to buy what they've heard of, so the shops tend to stock trees of well-known, modern varieties.
Unfortunately, most "modern" varieties in the shops are not bred for disease resistance or flavour; they're bred for attractive fruit, since consumers buy on looks, not on taste or easy-growing.
Who'd dare to buy someone a present of an almost-forgotten name of apple tree labelled: "Annie Elizabeth", "Belle de Boskoop", "Court Pendu Plat", "Crawley Beauty", "D'Arcy Spice" or "Grenadier"?
(not that I'd recommend most of those "up North", apart from Annie Elizabeth or Grenadier)

Being forewarned of potential problems with your trees means that you can be prepared. Some of my own trees are prone to certain problems. No apple variety is perfect, but knowing your own trees helps tremendously.
Even if the Jonagold don't ripen properly, they may be useful as cookers.
A cooker is basically an apple that doesn't ripen in our climate!
"Up North", James Grieve is more of a cooker. "Down South" it is more of an eater.
In the USA, I think that some of the warmer areas can ripen Bramley into a fairly sweet eater.

I doubt that the trees will die, but they may not be at their best unless sprayed.
Like I said; the "arms" of an apple espalier can easily be re-grafted to a more desirable variety; it's not that difficult and if the grafts fail, the tree will re-grow what you cut off.

You can try growing them as espaliers.
I would suggest winter pruning and tying young shoots to canes, until the main structure is formed.
Then switch to hard summer pruning (July) to cut back all new growth to just a couple of inches. This will reduce vigour and increase fruitfulness.
As they get older, due to their strong vigour, reduce the amount of nitrogen feed ("N"), but continue with phosphorus ("P") and potassium ("K").
Changing the N/P/K nutrient balance away from nitrogen will reduce shoot growth and reduce the risk of bitter pit.

[Two_Sheds]

5 to 25 metres. That's not very helpful of the retailer. ... the shops tend to stock trees of well-known, modern varieties.

And at £4, the trees fly out of the shops

I've asked Lidl to label the rootstock on their plants, but they haven't replied (double rolleyes)

[FB.]

And at £4, the trees fly out of the shops

I've asked Lidl to label the rootstock on their plants, but they haven't replied (double rolleyes)

I wonder whether it gives such a wide size range because the trees are "end-of-season" nursery clearance, on a mixture of rootstocks. I doubt that a discount retailer would even notice that some of their trees were labelled "Bramley M27" while others were labelled "Bramley M25".
Maybe some people get a M27 Bramley (5ft/10yrs), while others get a M25 Bramley (25ft/10yds). The packaging just says "Bramley", so who knows.

[Hassan]

Bit of a update to this, last year we had one apple from the two trees (Jonagold). This year i have just bought a James Grieve (should be here next week) so we shall see if we get any better results.

[Feral007]

I've got quite a few fruit from my two trees this year. Last year was crap. I'm going to be picking FB's brains for pruning soon.

But my two new Cox's orange pippins have no fruit, no flower this year. But they are strong looking trees. Hoping that is a good thing!