Fruit tree advice please

[*Lavender*]

Hello,

Hoping some people can advise. I'd like some fruit trees for my allotment, but not sure what would be suitable.

I'd like some apple, pear, plum/damson and cherry.

Not sure how much room they require and what sort of root stock, variety etc I should be looking at.

The soil on the allotment is heavy clay, and I'm near Glasgow.

If anyone has any advice or can direct me to websites etc that would be great!

Thanks

[FB.]

I'm not sure that many pears would thrive in Scotland - they generally need a warm climate. Many pears are quite prone to wet-weather diseases such as scab or canker. They flower quite early (my pears are just opening their first flowers), so their blossoms can be killed by a late frost.
Hessle pear would be my best suggestion for a cold, wet location. Quince C rootstock would probably be appropriate for a rich allotment soil that gets plenty of rainfall. Quince A would be a bit more vigorous, if necessary.

Plums also flower early, so could get frosted. On a good allotment soil, Pixy rootstock would probably be fine. St.Julien A rootstock is more vigorous, if required.

Apples would probably be best on M26 rootstock for an allotment soil.
Again, frost resistance would be desirable. Additionally, there will be a lot of scab or canker in much of Scotland due to wet climate, so certain varieties could be very hit-or-miss. Those that are resistant to both frost and scab tend to be troubled by pests (maggots). Those that are resistant to pests tend to be troubled by scab, canker or frost.
Egremont Russet would be about the best all-rounder. Very hardy and very pest/disease resistant.

Hopefully someone from your area can add some additional suggestions.

You might get some ideas on final tree size using this calculator:
> Link <
I would expect an allotment soil to rate at least "above average" and possibly rate as "very good" (although Scotland's shorter/cooler/duller growing season may reduce tree growth).

[*Lavender*]

Thanks for that (sorry, did mean to reply earlier but got distracted!)

I think I shall give the pears a miss then. The website you linked to is very helpful too - thanks! I shall investigate maybe a few different apple trees then. Dp wants a cherry but no idea how they'd do, though my parents next door neighbours (which backs on to our allotment) have a cherry tree that always fruited when I was younger (used to pinch the cherries that hung over!!) - no idea what type it was though but always had pretty blossom.

Reading a bit more about apples and apparently Charles Ross, Discovery and Falstaff are recommended for this area - any info on these ones?

Also, is it better to grow as cordons/espaliers or just as standards on an open allotment?

Thanks

[Tam]

I grow Comice pears in the Scottish borders and they have always thrived. I had a william pear for a number of years which did really well until it decided to die.. The biggest pear tree I have ever seen was in Joppa (on the outskirts of Edinburgh) - I don't know what the variety is, but apparently it has a very good flavour.

[FB.]

The cold and damp climate is a serious problem for scab (which can cause your whole crop to rot on the tree) and for canker (which can cause serious dieback as it cuts off sapflow to branches).

Charles Ross, Discovery and Falstaff are also suitable for cold regions and they aren't too susceptible to canker or scab.
Discovery is very susceptible to "maggots" or "worms" in the apples, although I posted a set of pictures on here of how to salvage most of the flesh of a maggotty Discovery apple.
But those tunneling pests love the long, hot, dry summer conditions here in Cambs. Cool wet and windy is not at all helpful for the tunneling pests, since the wind and rain disrupt flying and mating, while a cool climate reduces their rate of reproduction.

I just did a quick look for varieties that meet at least two of:
1. Frost resistant blossom.
2. Suitable for the Northern climate.
3. Some resistance to both scab and canker.
4. Strong resistance to scab and not unusually prone to canker.

Annie Elizabeth (1,3)
Beauty of Bath (2,4)
Brownlees Russet (2,3)
Crawley Beauty (2,3)
Edward VII (1,2,4)
Egremont Russet (1,2,3)
Grenadier (2,3)
Lord Derby (2,3)
Newton Wonder (1,2,3)
Winston (1,2,3)

This is not an exhaustive list and you may find that some are so widely grown "up North" that their disease resistance is failing nowadays due to disease adaptation.
There may also be some valuable old Scottish varieties that aren't well-known.

Although Mr.Butterworth has retired, his website still lists the varieties that he used to offer, which might give you further ideas:
> Link to Butterworths <

.

[realfood]

I grow many fruit trees on my allotment just inside the Glasgow boundary. Late frosts have never been a problem, nor maggots, except for plum sawfly. Plums and damsons do very well, there are a few pears and quite a few apples, but canker is far and away the worst problem for them.
If there are any squirrels near you, forget about cherries. Only steel netting would keep them off and they will take every cherry.
As allotment soil tends to be very rich, try a dwarfing rootstock to limit the final height to about 3 m, as you cannot easily reach the fruit above that height.
For further info on growing in Glasgow, try the information on this page :- T O P F R U I T

[FB.]

As allotment soil tends to be very rich, try a dwarfing rootstock to limit the final height to about 3 m, as you cannot easily reach the fruit above that height.

In the North, I would recommend M26 rootstock for most purposes, or MM111 rootstock for larger trees.
Both are hardier and less troubled by wetness/root rots than the commonly used MM106 - although Mr.Butterworth clearly used MM106. MM106 is a very fickle rootstock. On poor dry soil it is a fairly dwarfing and slow-growing rootstock, while on good, moisture-retentive and fertile soil, MM106 can grow very quickly and produce half-standards.

[purplekat]

FB
Do you know why some varieties are more prone to maggots than others - is it the flowering time?

[*Lavender*]

Thanks very much all - much to think about!

[FB.]

FB
Do you know why some varieties are more prone to maggots than others - is it the flowering time?

If you go "scrumping" for windfalls, there will be a high number of pest-damaged fruits. Pest damage encourages the tree to drop damaged fruit.

There are several things that make an apple more prone to maggot attack than others.
There seems to be some apple-family tendencies (such as Discovery and its relatives), but there seem to be a number of other minor things that can all add up to a problem.

Some of the suspected factors for maggot attack include:

Early-season (summer) or mid-season (early autumn) apples.
Red colouration.
Apples on the sunniest side of the tree.
A tree that already has a maggot attack attracts more.
Large apples.
Thin skin.
Soft-textured flesh.
Scented apples.
Sweet apples.
Eating apples.
Highly flavoured apples.
Apple trees with bright and large white blossom cause sawfly adults to home in on them.

Things that seem to reduce maggot attack:
Dull coloured apples.
Small apples.
Apples on the shadier side of the tree.
Russet skin.
Thick skin.
Tough flesh.
Not much scent.
Late ripening (especially those that aren't ripe until they've been stored until the new year).
Cookers and sharp-flavoured apples.

But bear in mind that no variety is immune. If the maggots have nothing else to eat, even the more resistant varieties will be attacked.

In my experience, some of the most prone to codling maggot attack include:

Discovery, Scrumptious, Ellison's Orange

....and some that are prone to sawfly attack. Sawfly is generally less troublesome as most maggotty fruits drop very early and there are less life cycles in a season than codling. With sawfly, the maggoty fruits usually have a large and very obvious "smiley" russet ribbon scar.
Sawfly-prone:
Pinova, Golden Delicious

-------------------------------

.......and some varieties always which seem to not be of interest to maggots as long as the maggots have other tasty varieties to attack such as those listed above:
Ashmead's Kernel, Bountiful, Brownlees Russet, Crawley Beauty, D'Arcy Spice, Egremont Russet, Fiesta, Laxton's Superb, James Grieve, Spartan.


.

[realfood]

Mercifully, Codling moth does not seem to be a problem in Scotland.

[FB.]

Mercifully, Codling moth does not seem to be a problem in Scotland.

I don't know which is worse......

Scab, canker and frosts (your main problems)

or

Mildew, codling and droughts (my main problems)

................

Still....we live, learn and adapt.

[purplekat]

Interesting....so basically, all the things that I want in an apple (nice flowers, colour, scent, taste) are also what attracts the maggots too - typical!

[FB.]

Interesting....so basically, all the things that I want in an apple (nice flowers, colour, scent, taste) are also what attracts the maggots too - typical!

Yup.

On a similar note; when I had some meat that I wasn't sure about, I'd offer a piece to my dear old cat (sadly deceased at age 24 last October). If she ate it, it was still good. If she grunted and walked away, the meat was either "off", or not particularly good quality.

[FB.]

Interesting....so basically, all the things that I want in an apple (nice flowers, colour, scent, taste) are also what attracts the maggots too - typical!

On a more serious note....

With the early-ripening apples, you can often cut around the magotty core and salvage as much as three quarters of the flesh.
I posted some pictures of how I salvaged a lot from a pest-damaged "Discovery" apple on the following thread:
http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...lem_51516.html

The later-ripening apples are often hard and sharp when picked, so don't attract the pests as much.
These apples ripen after picking - sometimes requiring a couple of months storage in a box in the shed before they're edible. But when fully ripe after Christmas, they can be very tasty.