Mini Orchard Collection

[FB.]

On plums Pixy is your dwarf rootstock which grows up to 15 feet. I wouldn't touch a plum unless you are desperate for one as they grow large and you cannot prune them too hard.

Growing against a fence you would attach it to wires which you would have screwed into your fence posts. Like doing soft fruits.

You could only really fan a plum and I have never seen one espaliered. I think it's because they don't like heavy pruning and grow so big. But this us achievable with apples. Coxs Orange Pippin is hard to beat for taste. But you need mote than one for pollination. We have about twelve different fruit trees spread far and wide - up to 30 feet is needed between trees grown as standards.

Choice of rootstock depends considerably on:

Soil depth, quality and moisture.

Variety vigour.

Rootstock vigour.

.....................

In my area, plums on Pixy rootstock simply will not grow and even when grafted onto St.Julien A rootstock they will only manage a few inches per year of new growth and take about ten years to reach a height/spread of about 7ft/2m.
The soil is too shallow, infertile and the rainfall too low.
In my experience, plums are one of the most dependent on a good, moist, deep, fertile soil. Pears are a bit less fussy and apples are the least fussy.

Be careful when assuming that rootstocks magically cause a tree to always reach the same size in all parts of the UK.
It seems as if you are blessed with excellent growing conditions. Some of us are not so fortunate.

There are almost no old plum or pear trees in my area and the largest old apple trees (on the vigorous old crab or seedling rootstocks) in my area are typically about 12ft (4metres), with the occasional old Laxton's Superb or Bramley that have reached about 15-18ft (5-6 metres).

[FB.]

Try the following link, for a more realistic guide to final tree size, which takes a variety of factors into account:

> Tree size estimator <

[chris]

Speaking of plum rootstocks, my MIL just moved house - has a victoria plum, with no obvious graft - even digging slightly down.. it's not that tall - I take it that's depending on growing conditions too? Or will it just continue growing until it eventually dies?

[FB.]

After many years, grafts can become difficult to identify. It is also possible that the graft was buried well below ground level, or the grafted part died, or the tree is a self-sown seedling from a Victoria which closely resembles its parent (perhaps it is a self-pollinated Victoria seedling, with, therefore, many of the same genes as its parent).

Most fruit trees will continue growing until they die (at various rates depending on rootstock, scion, soil, pruning etc).
However, as trees get older, they tend to have only sparse leaves in the (gloomy) middle of the canopy and most of the leaves and fruit on the outside of the canopy, where there is most sunlight.
For that reason, larger trees are less productive per square yard of ground area than smaller trees.

The benefit of larger trees is their attractive appearance and their greater tolerance of difficult conditions that would soon kill a dwarf tree.

[mrbadexample]

Hmmm...this is getting tricky!

It would seem that the most suitable fruit trees for me are apple and pear.

The ones I would like least are apple and pear.

Plums would be lovely, but likely to grow too big.

I estimate the depth of my soil to be about 20". No idea about quality - it's got a lot of junk in it (stones etc.)

Perhaps I should go back to the original thought of pots on the patio, using cheap trees like Zaz. Perhaps I should grow a plum tree until it gets too big, then chop it down and start again.

[FB.]

I doubt that Pixy rootstock would get too big.
With a weak-growing variety (not all fruiting varieties are equally sized when mature) you'd definitely be able to control it on Pixy and might even need St.Julien A.
Personally, if I was planting plums in my very poor soil (about half your depth and about half the average annual rainfall), I'd be using super-vigorous Myrobalan rootstocks. That said, my own myrobalan still drops about half its leaves most summers due to drought. It is about 16ft and about 25 years old.

In my experience, it is easier to reduce the vigour of a tree that is too strong, than to try to increase the vigour of a tree that is growing too slowly.
If a tree grows too quickly, reduce the amount of feeding/mulching and give it a hard prune in early-mid summer.

With good pruning, I bet that I could grow a M25-rootstocked apple or wild-pear-rootstocked pear in a patio pot, despite their desire to grow into a 15-20ft tree.

[mrbadexample]

Thanks FB.

If I chose a yellow mirabelle plum, what rootstock would you suggest? How vigorous is a mirabelle?

[FB.]

I would suggest looking at the tree size estimator that I linked earlier, using the assumption that your soil is above average quality, in conjunction with the RHS page on plum rootstock and their mature size here:
Plums: pruning / RHS Gardening Advice

Due to difficult growing conditions and short shelf-life, I have all but abandoned plums and their relatives, so I am not best placed to comment on them, other than their dependence on deep, rich, moisture-retentive soil. I understand that plums often used to be planted at the edges of orchards, near to drainage ditches, to ensure a good moisture supply for their needs was within root-growth distance.

I also only grow a limited number of pears, since, like plums, they need half-decent soils and (again like plums) fruit splitting is a major problem on my shallow, low-fertility and droughty soil.

My main focus is on super-long-shelf-life apples with excellent tolerance of poor conditions and with high-level pest and disease resistance in a no-spray situation.
I have quite a collection of old, forgotten - and in some cases rare - varieties.

What makes you so determined to not grow other fruits? If it is the pathetic specimens for sale in the shops, then you'll find home-grown apples to be like an almost completely different fruit. Home-grown apples don't have to be sharp-tasting and hard; they can have all kinds of textures, flavours and other sensory qualities.

[BroadRipple]

plea about apples, especially for FB!

With good pruning, I bet that I could grow a M25-rootstocked apple or wild-pear-rootstocked pear in a patio pot, despite their desire to grow into a 15-20ft tree.[/QUOTE]

Hello - this is my first ever post on this wonderful site.
Like FB I love apples and wanted to grow interesting varieties...however, as I have a very small urban garden, surrounded by neighbours' wobbly/low walls, I took the advice of a famous fruit-growing nursery and bought 2 small fan-trained trees (Charles Ross, James Grieve) to grow against the only solid wall.
THREE YEARS ON, I HAVE HARVESTED TWO APPLES.
This is obviously pathetic, but I don't know the reason for it.
Both had bad woolly aphid, which I painted with ***** Fluid. Could this have killed new growth? This year the JG produced no leaves or buds at ALL, and the CR a few leaves; no blossom so far. I contacted the nursery, with photos, but they just said the trees were clearly cankered and would help no further. I suspect there IS a bit of canker, but not much. SHould I pull them both out and grow something else there? The soil isn't great, but I'd hoped this wouldn't matter.
Are any really interesting apples - Lord Lambourn, Blenheim Orange - growable in pots by an inexperienced pruner? If so, any suggestions?
And lastly...is there even the faintest point in attempting to grow (long-term) a black mulberry in a pot?

[mrbadexample]

What makes you so determined to not grow other fruits?

I'm still quite open-minded. It's just that I prefer drupes to apples and pears. It's just a question of researching properly to find something I'd benefit from most. There's no point in growing something I wouldn't use.

I mentioned earlier an apple tree that grew in my Gran's garden, years ago. The fruit was crisp, sweet, and so juicy that it would run down your arm when you ate it. Often the core would be filled with liquid. Can you think of a variety like that? IIRC, they didn't go very red when ripe. A slight blush, but not much more than that. We used to leave the windfalls in a box in the front garden for people to help themselves to - often we would have people knocking at the door to ask if there were any apples spare, they were so popular.

I wouldn't hesitate to choose that above all else if I knew what it was.

[FB.]

I took the advice of a famous fruit-growing nursery and bought 2 small fan-trained trees (Charles Ross, James Grieve) to grow against the only solid wall.
THREE YEARS ON, I HAVE HARVESTED TWO APPLES.

Both had bad woolly aphid, which I painted with ***** Fluid. Could this have killed new growth?

That's interesting. In my area, woolly aphids won't touch James Grieve at all, but they do love to attack Bramley and many of the Cox-like/Cox's offspring.
The ***** fluid might have damaged the trees (meths applied with an old paintbrush is best), but equally likely the woolly aphid just knocked the life out of them.
Last winter I had a major campaign against woolly aphids, which had caused serious damage. I am free of woolly aphids - for now.

This year the JG produced no leaves or buds at ALL, and the CR a few leaves; no blossom so far. I contacted the nursery, with photos, but they just said the trees were clearly cankered and would help no further. I suspect there IS a bit of canker, but not much.

Those devilish woolly aphids work together with canker. The aphids cause splits in the bark which allow canker to enter (and the woolly aphids can carry canker with them when they move around), and the cankers enlarge the splits to give wooly aphids a place to hide from predators.
You don't mention your location, but judging by the choice of varieties, you sound as if you're "up North" (Scotland?), where canker can be a serious problem - especailly in the West.

SHould I pull them both out and grow something else there? The soil isn't great, but I'd hoped this wouldn't matter.

It may be that the soil is too poor for the rootstocks to thrive. Do you know the choice of rootstock? The usual for fans/espaliers is MM106, but this usually gives some protection against all but the most determined woolly aphid attacks.

Are any really interesting apples - Lord Lambourn, Blenheim Orange - growable in pots by an inexperienced pruner? If so, any suggestions?

Blenheim Orange would be difficult to manage as a restricted form. It is very slow to start fruiting, it prefers long distances between side branches, it grows very rapidly and prefers to grow as a huge "specimen" tree. It is an erratic cropper.
Blenheim has no special disease resistance; simply relying on its ferocious growth rate to (hopefully) try to outgrow whatever attacks it. My own Blenheim (on M26) gets canker from time to time, but it is quite fun to watch the Blenheim gradually fight back until the canker drops out, leaving just a hole.
Lord Lambourne also doesn't have much special resistance to diseases and the Mrs parents tree (admittedly neglected) is much troubled with canker and pests.

Knowing your location (and the size that you want your tree to get) would be very useful to give a shortlist of varieties and rootstocks for you to consider.

[FB.]

I'm still quite open-minded. It's just that I prefer drupes to apples and pears. It's just a question of researching properly to find something I'd benefit from most. There's no point in growing something I wouldn't use.

I mentioned earlier an apple tree that grew in my Gran's garden, years ago. The fruit was crisp, sweet, and so juicy that it would run down your arm when you ate it. Often the core would be filled with liquid. Can you think of a variety like that? IIRC, they didn't go very red when ripe. A slight blush, but not much more than that. We used to leave the windfalls in a box in the front garden for people to help themselves to - often we would have people knocking at the door to ask if there were any apples spare, they were so popular.

I wouldn't hesitate to choose that above all else if I knew what it was.

Sadly, there are thousands of apple varieties around - and also some gardens will have trees grown from pips that actually turned out to be worth keeping, but were never grown by anyone else.
You could try going to an autumn "apple day" to try a selection of different and unusual apples varieties. Somebody there may also know the variety, if it is a local one.

[VirginVegGrower]

Choice of rootstock depends considerably on:

Soil depth, quality and moisture.

Variety vigour.

Rootstock vigour.

.....................

In my area, plums on Pixy rootstock simply will not grow and even when grafted onto St.Julien A rootstock they will only manage a few inches per year of new growth and take about ten years to reach a height/spread of about 7ft/2m.
The soil is too shallow, infertile and the rainfall too low.
In my experience, plums are one of the most dependent on a good, moist, deep, fertile soil. Pears are a bit less fussy and apples are the least fussy.

Be careful when assuming that rootstocks magically cause a tree to always reach the same size in all parts of the UK.
It seems as if you are blessed with excellent growing conditions. Some of us are not so fortunate.

There are almost no old plum or pear trees in my area and the largest old apple trees (on the vigorous old crab or seedling rootstocks) in my area are typically about 12ft (4metres), with the occasional old Laxton's Superb or Bramley that have reached about 15-18ft (5-6 metres).

Try telling that to our poor soil garden orchard with a huge plum tree, massive pear trees and considerably sized apples. Dwarf rootstock is sold for a reson these days - it is more suited to an urban garden. I think people end up getting rid as they become swamped by fruit trees in an average sized garden.

[VirginVegGrower]

Choice of rootstock depends considerably on:

Soil depth, quality and moisture.

Variety vigour.

Rootstock vigour.

.....................

In my area, plums on Pixy rootstock simply will not grow and even when grafted onto St.Julien A rootstock they will only manage a few inches per year of new growth and take about ten years to reach a height/spread of about 7ft/2m.
The soil is too shallow, infertile and the rainfall too low.
In my experience, plums are one of the most dependent on a good, moist, deep, fertile soil. Pears are a bit less fussy and apples are the least fussy.

Be careful when assuming that rootstocks magically cause a tree to always reach the same size in all parts of the UK.
It seems as if you are blessed with excellent growing conditions. Some of us are not so fortunate.

There are almost no old plum or pear trees in my area and the largest old apple trees (on the vigorous old crab or seedling rootstocks) in my area are typically about 12ft (4metres), with the occasional old Laxton's Superb or Bramley that have reached about 15-18ft (5-6 metres).

Try telling that to our poor soil garden orchard with a huge plum tree, massive pear trees and considerably sized apples. Dwarf rootstock is sold for a reson these days - it is more suited to an urban garden. I think people end up getting rid as they become swamped by fruit trees in an average sized garden.

[FB.]

Try telling that to our poor soil garden orchard with a huge plum tree, massive pear trees and considerably sized apples.

Why is your soil poor?
Given the higher rainfall in the NorthWest, that alone could account for better-than-average growth, since the majority of what a plant needs is water.
Traditionally, the NorthWest, was the prime place for growing plums; there's something up there that suits them and my experiences suggest that it is plentiful rainfall.

Given that old trees may well be on vigorous rootstocks and there is "survivorship bias" where only the most vigorous survivie to old age (giving us a false impression of average size), and given that trees keep growing (slowly) until they die, it is not unreasonable for an old tree to get quite large.

Dwarf rootstock is sold for a reson these days - it is more suited to an urban garden. I think people end up getting rid as they become swamped by fruit trees in an average sized garden

Just last winter, I dug-out and gave away, several 7-10 year old bushes on St.Julien A or MM106 (an equivalent apple rootstock to SJA) because they had only reached about 5ft in size, despite my best efforts to make them grow.
I retained a couple of pears on Quince A (again equivalent to SJA/MM106). The pears, now several years old, are about 4ft in size.